Ukraine: Cold War, Hot War, Détente: Dueling Video Interviews ‘n Tweets

First, from Democracy Now!, As Unrest Grows, Is Ukraine Paying the Price of U.S.-Russian Ties Stuck in Cold War Era? with the editor of the Kyiv Post, Christopher J. Miller (linkedIn profile) (Kyiv Post Wiki), Khrushchev’s granddaughter Nina, and Former US Ambassador to the Soviet Union Jack Matlock. Miller’s most recent post at the Post is here: Escalation. Ubiquitous commenter on the thread Timothy D. Nagle’s linkedIn. (int’l banking attorney) h/t TarheelDem, the Wiki says that: ‘KP Media (thus Sunden) sold the newspaper to British citizen Mohammad Zahoor on July 28, 2009. Zahoor owns the ISTIL Group and is a native of Pakistan and a former (since 2008) trader in steel production in Donetsk.

Nina Khruscheva on Twitter, points to her incoherent needle-threading, and to Putin projects Russia’s unreal reality. This NYT piece from 1999 concerns the ‘Kennan’ she references.

CrossTalk: Containment 2.0? (ft. Stephen Cohen & John Mearsheimer)

The obnoxious ads begin at 11:48, the interview resumes at 15:22. Peter Lavelle is usually obnoxious, as well, but this is a fairly decent performance, imo. Professor Mearsheim’s contention that for Bush and Obama it’s an article of faith that the US is a ‘benign hegemon’ is a stretch for me. I couldn’t find any transcript or the interview.

Mike Whitney, quite alarmed by the evolving situation, believes that Washington’s business with Ukraine is about the ‘pivot to Asia’, making sure that ‘China’s growth is controlled in a way compatible with U hegemony’.

‘So what does controlling China have to do with the dust up in Ukraine?

Everything. Washington sees Russia as a growing threat to its plans for regional dominance. The problem is, Moscow has only gotten stronger as it has expanded its network of oil and gas pipelines across Central Asia into Europe. That’s why Washington has decided to use Ukraine is a staging ground for an attack on Russia, because a strong Russia that’s economically integrated with Europe is a threat to US hegemony. Washington wants a weak Russia that won’t challenge US presence in Central Asia or its plan to control vital energy resources’.

Oil, gas, pipelines…then he quotes Zbig as spelling out the future of the Empire:

‘ With Eurasia now serving as the decisive geopolitical chessboard, it no longer suffices to fashion one policy for Europe and another for Asia. What happens with the distribution of power on the Eurasian landmass will be of decisive importance to America’s global primacy and historical legacy.” (The danger of war in Asia“, World Socialist Web Site)’

Paul Craig Roberts still sees: The New Cold War: Moving Closer to War

Oh, my; from the State Dept. on Twitter:

At 5pm ET, @AmbassadorPower and the @UN Security Council will meet on the situation in #Ukraine.

Important read from U/S @Stengel – sets record straight on disinformation being spread about #Ukraine by #RussiaToday

Crisis in #Ukraine calls us back to role @NATO was created for: defend Alliance territory & advance trans-Atlantic security.

#Ukraine crisis is wake-up call to accelerate work we are doing to promote stronger, more prosperous trans-Atlantic community.

( #Ukraine is always…interesting…)

This is an open thread; what do you see, intuit, expect next; what historical events and policies have brought us to this standoff, will the Kremlin ‘take’ Eastern Ukraine, would it be crazy as Mearsheimer believes… especially considering this development:

Ukraine crisis: Kiev powerless as east slips out of its control: ‘Pro-Russian crowd storms regional HQ in Luhansk while Donetsk looks likely to declare autonomy after May vote
tells the , “NATO territory is inviolable—we will defend every single inch of it” (Twitter Pic)

Whew; at least that’s not provocative…

And Geoffrey Pyatt sent the Kremlin a short message yesterday

(cross-posted at

90 responses to “Ukraine: Cold War, Hot War, Détente: Dueling Video Interviews ‘n Tweets

  1. Trying to get to this diary at fdl, wendye, but something is holding me back – maybe it is that clutter of ads they do now under every diary, but I can’t get in for trying. Will try again later. Anyway, I just now was watching the ‘massive brawl’ last night at the Maidan video from RT:

    The expectation I had was to see something very ugly happening – I didn’t see that. A very formidable group of masked folk with flags marched solemly in, and another large group of camouflaged individuals, some weapons being carried – the first group have lots and lots of firebrands. Another group of ununiformed folk, so three groups in all. Someone threw something flaming, maybe two times that happened, somebody threw fists.

    In no way was it a ‘massive brawl’ – my impression was everyone trying to keep the peace. Might be something similar in one of our cities if the KKK were marching, is my thought. Well done Ukranians, is another.

    To any who would like to see this erupt into rioting to ‘resolve’ the issue, I say, cool it. And that includes those folk who think they own us.

  2. InDeed; STOP US’ PNAC Attacks.

  3. the site gets the ‘site is down’ message often. makes me wonder about the tech team, really. obviously, it’t not related to any denial of service hacking stuff. if only… :)

    but i’ll bring my comment here as well: Ooopise: no service…again.
    i’ll try for some zzzleep, been awake since 3:30, and answer in a bit. meanwhile, thanks for the RT video and stills, and for the MoA.

    here’s the bloomberg funny i’d mentioned over yonder. bidness is bidness for (multinational) supporters of the Imperium. ‘Risks!!!’

  4. Let them play those tit for tat games and leave Ukraine out of it so the grannies (I know some of them are called babushkas but not sure on the western side) can go back to planting their gardens. I seem to have a lot of bottom lines – that’s another one.

  5. THD’s take on the sides, protestors is likely right: “If I had to figure who was involved in capturing buildings in eastern Ukraine. I think I would look to it being a minor partisan battle between Svoboda-Right Sector and pro-Russian nationalists on both sides of the border. And to interpret them as acting on behalf of either nation (or even the US, although with Nuland and Brennan at the helm that is not unlikely) could lead to a tragic miscalculation and escalation.”
    yes, ChePasa keeps reminding us that none of this is helping the welfare of the people in ukraine. sadly, nato wants russia ringed in order to isolate her, as impossible as it is, and mearsheimer and cohen said. plus, the EU can’t afford that, and cooler heads know that doing so just forces russia more toward china and the BRICs.

    the broken promises made to the kremlin about ‘no more nato members’ is a huge part of what russia must see as provocative betrayal, no?

    meanwhile, i’m listening to canon in D to soothe me

    to offset this musical feeling i have most recently… pathos, furor, acceptance, anxiety…in cycles

  6. Yesterday’s copy of the Wall Street Journal fell into my hands – Brezhinski thinking it a ‘good idea’ to give arms to Ukraine, when to my mind the less arms the better. Duplicitous Journal ‘factually’ stating in another article that ‘since Russia seized Crimea’…

    Ugh. Double Ugh. Definitely destined for the bottom of the canary cage, though I hope it doesn’t poison their little feet. (Canaries are riffing to Pachelbel Canon, wendye; thanks.

  7. i apologize, juliania. kit’s been trying to help me sort all the ‘i can’t see the embedded tweets on my posts’ stuff. i ended up getting a third clean firefox, and now i’m being inundated with software that’s taking over my laptop. it’s soooo slooooow that i’ll need to run some long anti-virus programs.

    oh, zbig is a putin/russia-hater! yes, that meme has been quite reified in the press, even ruth calvo used something like that in her new thing.

  8. michaelcavlan

    Hey Wendy. Good article. Oh and thanks for the mention of us “edgy dissenters” being banned on FDL. Although you mention that it was “perhaps the flagging system” that caused the bannings. In fact it was Miz jane Hamsher herself that was directly and personally involved in at least one. Remember Alan Maki the Trade Union guy from Minnesota? he is a personal friend and political ally of mine. he was banned personally by Jane Hamsher herself, not for violating any rules like I was. Rules that were obviously and blatantly one sided on how they were used.
    No Alan maki was banned from FDL by Jane Hamsher because of a PERSONAL e mail he sent her that simply but strongly questioned the way she was unfairly administering the aforementioned rules.
    There were no others involved, no “flagging” of alan’s comment. just a personal decision by Miz Hamsher.
    But of course since Alan Maki was banned without any ability to make his case to the readers of FDL there is no way you all could have known that.
    THAT is what makes these arbitrary bannings so heinous. Those of us banned have never been given the ability to defend ourselves or even answer some of the personal smears to our character or judgment. In most cases there is nothing, no response at all. We just “disappear’ alike what happened at FDL.

  9. The Hamster Youth say:

  10. why do i get the feeling you just stopped to talk about the bannings? :)
    i did add my two cents about it and other issues at the end of ds wright’s post on the doj not caring to prosecute banking fraud.

    sorry, just stopped to say i am still fighting with all the apps firefox pwned me with… later alligators.

    not even time for the video, bruce.

  11. michaelcavlan

    Actually no Wendy. i stopped to talk about your article- which i read at FDL. The issue of the Ukraine has been unbelievable. In your article at FDL I noticed you made a reference to the ‘dissenters’, bannings and Democracy Now.
    that is why I mentioned it. No matter. I will drop it.

  12. ‘Actually’, michael cavlan, you did not engage n any discussion of the merits or not of this post. what you did was say later that you had been pinging off a comment i’d made on the my.fdl thread: quite different.

    please let me remind you that you did the same sot of thig at kblblogz: challenging me to give such and such to PW or fdl, whatever. another who was granted author privileges here posted a banner and diary about having been banned at;’Tdogglake’ clever, cute, but he’d also announced that he never would comment here. well, screw that. i did not, do not, want this place to a gripe-fest against FDL.

    Commenter bruce here was banned from fdl, and he doesn’t engage in that old history. if i mention it, i do hope it’s to some purpose or other.

  13. oh crap:

    “Putin says Geneva agreement no longer viable after Ukrainian military action
    Kiev launches offensive against Slavyansk in a bid to retake eastern city from pro-Russia militia; 2 helicopters shot down by ‘pro-russians’

    the live blogging includes the bandera-apologist who edits the kyiv post, i swear.

    oopsie: this is the live blog.

  14. The Guardian has totally failed to be objective, in my reading wendye. I would recommend the comments (scroll down to May 2) at the last Vineyard entry. Warning: there are trolls to leap over, but important facts in unfolding chaotic events worth the journey.

    This final one just now:

    ‘Military command on the radio from Kiev says to a soldier “look in the eyes of the people you have in front of you. What do you see? Tell me, soldier, tell me what you see. Should I ask you again? Should I answer for you? [you see] mothers, grandmothers, like yours and mine. I cannot offer you money. I can offer you only misery. But don’t obey the orders meant to start a war where your people will be killed.”’

  15. ach, i agree, ww, which was why i included the horror of embedding christopher miller’s tweets, as it shows again that the west seems fine with supporting a bunch of neo-nazis. mind-numbing. i will go look; i’m putting together a shell of a post on what info i’ve found on cecily mcmillan’s trial. they expect a verdict today after a couple hours of summation.

    from what i’ve followed, it will be a miracle if the jury doesn’t find her guilty;whoosh.

    poignant quote, oh dear. ah well, soon i’ll look.

  16. The terrible conflagration in Odessa yesterday made the nonviolence in the Maidan march (orchestrated by the media as a mass brawl) seem a portent and a provocation. I’m not prepared to say one side is innocent the other guilty – it is the provocation that will lead inevitably to violence. And because the installation of a questionable leadership is at the heart of the problem, that to me is where the provocation germinates and festers.

    Odessa and its oblast look very similar to Crimea on the map, but apparently they are very different, the former being a place of culture, music, art. Just to see that huge building burning with no attempts to do other than watch it burn was horrifying in itself, not to mention lives lost. It was at least heartening to see the attempts of citizens to raise scaffolding to save some of those trapped inside.

    My candle is still lit. ( It is a votive, by the way, that I make from a floating piece of cork and wick, the glass half full of water, with olive oil. Lasts the night through and is safe that way as the water will extinguish it when the oil runs out.)

  17. This just struck me as an important comment over at the Saker site, bearing in mind that comments must always be read with a wee grain of salt:
    Grieved said…
    I feel compelled to offer my opinion that Russia is already acting, and has been acting for weeks. Crimea didn’t just happen. And whatever happens here will not just “happen”.

    Most of what Russia is doing is invisible. The diplomatic dialog that RF is setting out for the public record is impeccable. One day there will be open media in the world (part of what Russia has learned is the need to promote this). Eventually the truth of all these crimes will be discussed in global awareness, even in the US, thankfully.

    But Russia doesn’t believe that Lavrov or Churkin will meet with success in their speeches – this is just a part of everything that RF is doing.

    Russia is at war, and I believe its eyes are wide open to everything that moves. Putin understands the west better than it does itself. Russia knows all the US plans for a failed state and asset-stripping, and when it counters those plans and aims for victory, this victory will not include a failed state run by Nazis, or anyone allied to the west.

    I have developed a working trust in the capabilities of Russia during the last couple of months. I see nothing so far to shake that trust.

    just my 2 cents – I offer it as a comfort while we wait for events to “unfold”.

    03 May, 2014 03:16
    Pardon my saying so, but this sounds like what we all would wish, although rather than ‘victory’ I would prefer the word ‘peace’. For Russia to achieve what this poster claims it wants to achieve, the country that is Ukraine needs to be left to its own peaceful devices as a country, a successful state. (I don’t agree with the statements I’ve heard this or that is not a country – a country is what its people desire it to be, no more, no less. A state is an artificial construct made by men, not any God.

  18. i didn’t know that about odessa, thank you. yes, it seems assigning more or less guilt is foolish, esp. given that chePsa said he’d watched it all on a livestream, and that most of the ‘pro-kiev’ particpants were very young, the what, federalists? i hate t keep say ‘pro-russian’ in that *that* might be quite so either.

    remind me: it was just after john brennan and another (kerry?) visited that kiev launched the new and bigger ‘anti-terrorist offensive’? was it kerry, is what i’m trying to remember. and yet samantha power is honking on about the fact that they laid off for easter, and have done everything that they signed onto in geneva. meh.

    oh, dear; i did watch some of the footage of the trade union burning building. tragic. #euromaidan on twitter says it was their guys who ran to the rescue with ropes; dunno about that. you’re thinking…passers-by or what?

    is it all in aid of trying to force putin to ‘invade’? such bad doings, and over yonder anyone who quibbles with the west and kiev is ‘a putin lover’. oy. i am glad they released the hostages, though, even if they really weren’t OSCE, it was a bad thing to do, then call them ‘guests’. again: meh.

    i see you put more on your cool matthiessen journey; i’ll have to read later. might need to comment over yonder again, and I’m busy starting bulbs in pots for later transplanting, thinning seedlings, etc. a nice still day here so far, aaahhhhh. birds tweetin’ and singin’ their love songs… :)

  19. Tragic? What? NO, deja vu Nazi BARBARISM; returned in infamy (e.g., “one of the most infamous Nazi atrocities. In the methodical June 1944 slaughter, SS soldiers took the small village of Oradour-sur-Glane in central France by surprise and killed nearly all its inhabitants within a few hours. They killed 642 men, women and children. The men were herded into barns and shot dead while the women and children were burned alive in the village church.”).Even more depraved, on Odessa; HATO’s ‘EU foreign policy chief (Airstrip 1 Baroness) Catherine Ashton said “the state’s monopoly on the legitimate use of violence needs to be respected.” !’
    Desiderata: US PNACi and Ukraine Yatzi anti-sepsis!

  20. how was this not tragic i n twelve different directions as well, bruce? right sector neo-nazis supported by the us and nato burn federalists (many alive) seeking shelter in the building, then beating them bloody when they come out? yulia speaks before congress?

    i did not know, or remember if i ever did, of that particular atrocity. ‘legitimate use of violence’. well, back-assward, of course. but we can all name a few examples in which a few deaths led to a far greater good, and right now i am thinking of the zapatistas. gotta run, mr. wd’s back with the groceries….

  21. Putschnik ARSENiy Yatsenyuk lives up to his name:

  22. dunno live leak, and its portrayal from that angle, but a friend who had been watching a live stream (forget the source) said (and i do hope it’s okay to bring it):

    “What happened in Odessa was truly grotesque. It was in its own way as hellish as the penultimate scenes in Kiev as fires raged and mayhem reigned. But those scenes were orchestrated and presented as a kind of Revolutionary pageant. What happened in Odessa was just monstrous, with no “revolutionary” intent, just mob action and bloodlust. It was appalling. And more than a few of those caught up in the mob came to their senses long enough to say “WTF?” Some of them even tried to help the wounded.

    Today’s aftermath seems to have shaken Odessans to the core. I wish I understood Russian/Ukrainian sufficiently to follow what they’re saying about it, but it’s clear from their demeanor that they are horrified and mortified.”

    as i asked juliania: were some of the firebombers then helpers, too late once they saw what they had wrought?; in essence. will it change what happens tomorrow, or are there mercenaries in sufficient numbers there to moot the ‘shaken-ness’? sigh.

  23. All I am saying, THIS might stand a chance:
    We should never be faulted for “a lack of imagination”.

  24. Thanks for that passage, wendye – it is best to view some of the footage with care, remembering Egypt, Syria chemical attack orchestrated footage – I would value a viewpoint such as this one from your friend, remembering the attraction to rebelliion that is a natural tendency for young people confused by a down economy – well that was how the original Nazis got their start, wasn’t it? These young people maybe can recognize what that has brought them to and reject it – that is to be hoped. So although some of the footage is clearly hyped (I hate a musical addition in some of it – you don’t need more drama, for crying out loud!) perhaps it serves a purpose.

    There are not a lot of these Nazi thugs but their influence is damaging, and our idiots have given them the power. Makes you wonder if the idiots’ll be recruiting the KKK crazies as they attempt to maintain ‘order’ here.

    No way to win friends and influence people. That’s the good part of it. I hope Putin sees he is winning by taking the high road and holding off. The world is watching. Perception is nine-tenths of something and the idiots aren’t doing themselves any favors as they trumpet their threats of more sanctions and laugh it up with the press.

  25. well if dave swanson has his way, bruce, we won’t suffer from a failure of imagination. how many years has it been since his ‘downing street’ site? hella lot, anyway, and he’s such a good writer, isn’t he? he did get quite pissed at me one time for not helping him create an xtranormal video, but it was extremely late to do so, and i would have had to start from scratch learning how, so i advised myself to beg off. :)

  26. i’m tangled by having read ‘grieved’ comment you brought, and mulling that over and through. i’m not sure what he means by russia is already at war, unless it’s a sun tzu (?) sort of…readiness, mind-set? i like peace rather than victory also, we wonder if and when that may come, eh? talks are planned, as in VZ; will they yield fruit?

    i’m not quite as sanguine about how few right sector or neo-nazis there are, partially because we only see the ones they send into the streets, their leaders of course safe and sound.

    but i thought i’d bring a few things i stuck on a word document and kept forgetting to bring in my haste to get my chores kinda taken care of, and squabbling a bit on fairleft’s two posts. and i truly hope i can get the time to read your new additions to paradise tomorrow before the verdict comes in on cecily mcmillan’s trial.

    This was on yasha levine’s twitter page: ‘Anti-Kiev activists stand in front of tanks to peacefully stop fascist forces; #RightSector burns innocent ppl alive.’

    howard amos who works for the guardian, has some petty dramtic photos of right sector from Odessa.

    what was said, no *wailed* by the locals in this piece from yesterday made so ill that I had to go outside for air and a bit of work.

  27. i had to let the entire ‘never let me go’ soundtrack play before i came back to say: what a wonderful sort of candle. i might need to seek one out, as i have no wick material any longer. bringing light in such a physical way can focus our thoughts and prayers (even rather atheistic ones) so well.

  28. Just bringing the latest headline from the Guardian this morning to indicate the tangle that news operation must be in:

    “More than 60 activists detained during violence that led to people being burnt alive in trade union buildling set free”

    I haven’t read the article yet,(glad to see they are at least giving neutral names to those attacked) but last night was seeing some video related pieces to the effect that the massacre was coordinated – that there were masked persons supposedly anti-Maidan but sporting red armbands, colluding with the police in a push against the tent people, that the activists (tent city similar to Occupy) were herded into the building where other people were waiting to attack them – the video I was watching had no English subtitles, but was homing in on the red-banded persons brandishing weapons. Showed them all (the redbanded) grouped receiving orders, passing through police lines.

    My question would have been also, even if folk on roof throwing firebrands (not seen in any videos) they could not have managed to curve them into windows to set blaze the building.

    Very similar to the situation of the original coup. Only worse.

  29. well, it was written by the same howard amos as the tweet above. they’ve been picking up AP and AFP stories, and i wonder if the verbiage remains the same as the originals. dunno anything about videos showing coordinated attacks, but i have seen that ones purported to have been X needing to be walked back later on twitter. propaganda is rife, and i really don’t have any major reporter to follow as a touchstone for the truth, certainly the saker included, rt, guardian… i just sift through.

    demian said on fairleft’s recent anti-chris floyd diary that justin raimondo wrote the absolute best must read, yada yada on ukraine (didn’t read it), but when i was looking at differnt twitter accts to see what others made of these events… (so sorry, i am still having trouble making the keys type letters):

    ….i saw his tweet of this video. warning: graphic, hideous, and i have zero idea who translated the (i assume) ukrainan language. srsly, be warned.

    now i almost want to say fook raimindo. he is/was very ubiquitous on the #SOS venezuela acct, calling out maduro’s govt and hoping to overthrow him for the other elites who favor…neoliberalism and capitalism (and democracy for *some*, of course.

    and if you come across the coordinated attack one, will you let us know?

  30. Machts nichts? Indisputably regardless, BushCObamanable US’ PNACis precipitated it ALL.

  31. i’m not sure if you mean ‘none of it matters’ to the lot of it, or if the video portrays what raimondo claims. i’m just mindful of the many twitter pics that led to a dogged blogger (i forget his name for now) having identified the photos have been from other realms, other actions, parades, what have you in his piece VZ analysis finally picked up: ‘how to construct a revolution’.
    the guardian’s liveblog for several days put up videos ‘they couldn’t confirm’ but showing…tra la la.

    note: the jury is deliberating cecily mcmillan’s fate, so i need to do a few chores and keep watch for the verdict. my guess is that if she’s found guilty, this hanging judge will give her the maximum seven years. i so hope i’m wrong.

  32. Sorta like the USAF Academy (I aspired to) “honor code’s” proscription of ‘quibbling’ over results; e.g., when the US Company intent is overthrow of Ukraine/Russia OR when, of course, McMillan’s entirely innocent, but faced with the now-exposed monumental, NATIONWIDE conspiracy of the entire federal government’s agents, from Obama on down to the “Pikers’ “; pepper-spraying (and worse), other equally FIRST Amendment-‘protected’ peaceful practitioners.

  33. ‘some dare call it fascism’
    (or ‘treason within’)

  34. I am, as you, horrified by graphic videos and tend to shun them, more trying to sort out the ‘false flag’ argument – that it seems the Right Sector element (red bands) were pretending to be anti-regime but were supported by the police officer – there is one photo showing them grouped around him as he instructs.

    This has credibility when paired with the German video discussing how snipers in the first protest that installed the pro-nazis shot both at demonstrators and police. Also, Saker has a video I have watched showing the fire starting from the inside of the building on the third floor – doesn’t seem to have anything to do with firebrands thrown.

    If I follow the translation there was actually a pro-regime march by football fans underway towards the tent occupied square that was ‘fired up’ by the redbands group against the tent occupying anti-regime (not clear if the fans knew these were pseudo) – redbands then got into building before enraged fans fired the tents and pushed occupants into building also, where they were dispatched and then bodies burned. Flag at window to signal success. (I’m recounting this dispassionately as I’ve avoided the graphic photos. That seems corroborated by the video Saker has.)

    The redbands were supposedly anti-regime but were not. They were the ones with guns whom the police were letting through lines apparently. The tent occupiers were anti-regime locals, no guns. Popular support, as for Occupy here, which tried to put up scaffolding to help victims and later stormed police building to free arrested tent persons. (No redbands arrested).

    It does look very like a co-ordinated, one-sided massacre to me. Think kettling on a horrible scale of premeditated violence.

  35. I take your point that much can be attributed to hype and propaganda. Tried to keep this to understanding who did what in Odessa – very unclear other parts of the country, and not completely clear in Odessa, but very tragic – infiltrators everywhere to muddy the mess even further.

    I do think it’s clear Obama has a lot to answer for.

  36. Just plowing through Guardian comments at their latest article. Have to give you this one (please pardon, language not mine but appropriate I think.)
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    CaptainKragh CaptainKragh
    06 May 2014 11:48am

    Just to summarise how the US will benefit on fucking up Ukraine:
    – A civil war will cause refuges to flea to Russia, using Russian resources, making Russia weaker
    – It gives the US a good excuse to make sanctions as Russia is doing well, dont have much debt and have money in the bank + have natural resources. US likes other countries on their knees.
    – The US can provide weapons direct to Ukraine
    – The US can provide surrounding stated with defence systems and monitoring systems and boost defence spending all around
    – US companies can frack the hell out of Europe to get to the little gas this will produce, subsidies from EU governments will give good money (cause fracking produces little gas and oil)
    And just to summarise how the EU looses out here:
    – We have a fcuking civil war on our doorsteps
    – They have nuclear reactors, if you dont take 100% car of them they melt down, thats how reactors work (remember Chernobyl, that is in Ukraine)
    – We have great trade with Russia, things are moving forward and we like Russians, just go out for a pissup with a group of Russians, best night out ever.
    – We have a fcuking civil war on our doorstep, it cant be said enough
    – We will have issues with gas supplies and will end up polluting pretty much everything while fracking. Just look at the US, the pollution caused by fracking is unbelievable
    – We will waste money on defence budgets and ultimately to the US
    – We will look like warmongers internationally, always palling up with WarOverlord US
    How does Ukraine loose out:
    – Bloody hell, where to start, they will have death and destruction
    – The economy will be fucked
    – It will take decades to recover
    – They will be run by facists
    – Basically they are screwed, its as simple as that. If there is a way, it wont just be forgotten, especially a civil war.

  37. oh, dear, bruce. mr. wd really liked that, and never mind that i was pratically crazed with things to do, compose, la la la….this a.m. he asked me if i’d had a chance to read it yet, lol. i did my best not to shriek….too loudly in frustration.

    i’ve been trying to fix all the adware/malware that’s taken over my laptop, couldn’t even see, much less play videos and more argghs with email not coming in. pity a poor blind widdy with six children and let it all get fixed! (or let me figure out the fixes, albeit the zillions of suggestions are varied and dangerous… :)

  38. your explanation of the red arm-band pretending to be not what they were…is chilling, but confusing. i wish i could read better at the saker, but the white i hard for me, the font too large (even tweaking smaller doesn’t help somehow), and home-done videos just blow my brain apart, like the one ds wright had up yesterday from odessa.

    is it explicitly of probative value that one fire started inside? thanks for explaining the scaffolding help. i’d forgotten you speak or understand russian; is ukrainian close enough to comprehend it as well?

    the comment: it seems close to right, but the most noteworthy part is of course about ukraine being screwed no matter what. therein lies the tragedy of geopolitics playing out there in the ‘new cold war’. goddam.

  39. … the Busher man!

  40. er…”goddam the busherman…”?

    steppenwolfe perhaps?

  41. Yes, but updated to fit the criminally INSANE Obalmy, who’s more depravedly Bush than W ever was.

  42. Ah wendye, I hasten to say no, I don’t either speak or understand Russian – unless armed with a dictionary and slowly translating a short passage. The Saker has had a video up on three posts – I watched it first without understanding the narration. On the second one, he put below a rough translation (boy those Russians speak rapidly; the language is so compact!) So, I watched again and gave the rough ‘this happened, then this’ above.

    Now, lastly, the third version of the video has English subtitles, but again, it is a rapidfire video, like running top speed downhill. I sort of see where it is going and they put in a diagram showing the marchers’ route then that they, the marching football crowd were provoked by the redband guys coming at them violently into changing their march route to go towards the encampment to deal with those camped out because they thought the redband guys were part of the encampment, but they were not. The redbands then go through police lines – shields part to let them through – and get into the building before the crowd (must have some fake ‘footballers’ to make the suggestion) herds the tent people inside.

    You can clearly see fire on the third floor, fire at the door preventing escape, and a Ukranian flag being waved to the cheers below, plus any escaping being set upon. Doesn’t seem faked to me, but again I will have to view it a few times more.

    Wish I did understand Russian – maybe I’ll get it done eventually!

    Saker thinks it important enough to have posted it three times. I may not agree with him on some points, but he does try to be accurate.

  43. @ bruce. check, and i won’t even utter the overly-used now glen ford: ‘more effective, etc.’ :)

    dunno why i’d misremembered that you spoke or understood russian. but yes, maybe later: you are an apt pupil, to say the least. :)

    okay, i finally watched the video at the saker’s place, and i thought i’d just stop it. read the words, look at the video…but of course hadn’t realized that i only saw one line of subtitles cuz i was activating the start/stop bar. arrrgh.

    the red bands, by the way, are clearly tape; one can see the jagged overlaps here and there. but yes, i saw the folks in the window with the Ukrainian flag, and the different cops and Uk officials being identified. and it does seem to be of probative value in that form, doesn’t it? i wasn’t quite getting the narrative that a helpful commenter had offered you, though, but it was early, and my reading skills often lack the complexity called for. agents provacateurs was of course the most acute damnation of right sektor thugs.

    just saw you were on fairleft’s piece, and i echo chePasa and chris floyd that there is far too much tendency toward black v. white over all this. to both kgb and decider on my posts i’d found myself saying again how tiresome it gets that to be pissed at the US and its deep state influence, that we must all put boilerplate: ‘putin is another fascist oligarch, but at least he’s rational and his actions are quite pragmatic’.

    where some get in the weeds, imo, is claiming that russia is the only democracy (is it?) in the northern hemisphere, everyday people are doing fine, yada, yada. but then, i know so little of the history that wasn’t express propaganda. :) but those who re trying to white-wash stalin? eeep. anyway, victoria nuland is on the case (senate inquiry)….

    oh, and euromaidan PR is claiming that a plot’s been uncovered in which pre-russians plan to steal exposives and blow up water supplies…or something, lol.

  44. ill read it more carefully when i can, bruce, but wot??

    ‘It writes the Russian news agency Itar-Tass , which refers to the Ukrainian news agency UNIAN.’

    too confusing in dueling news, propaganda, convenient framing, la la la… but i thought i’d embed, watch later. more ‘experts’. :)

  45. “Is Ukraine Descending Into Civil War?” Would you believe … If BaracKAOS can Help IT! As far as the little Dnieper is concerned, I’d hoped the “pitchers” of its dammed flow sufficed.

  46. I thought that was a good conversation at Real News, Bruce, even though it went light on US involvement. Might clarify what I was trying to explain in far too many words, wendye. Sorry about that.

  47. Woops, I thought Bruce had posted the video (scrambled brain). I did get to the Saker helpful comment finally – it was helpful (though horrible) to hear the provocateurs had actually killed footballers and that they, the killers then went directly to the encampment, also that the folk in the encampment, proponents of the referendum, had the union building as a home base (probably took showers there – they’d been camped out for some time.) So that’s why they naturally would run in there.

    As to Russian democracy, I’m no expert of course on that. Practically speaking Putin is promoting a peaceful outcome on this – I’m a bit tired of proclaiming other countries’ leaders as tyrants and using that as an excuse to wreck the countries – more than a bit tired actually. Same as the above, provocative propaganda that hurts peaceful citizens.

    Sick and tired of it.

  48. @ bruce: yes, the Imperium seems hell bent on keeping ukraine for nato, asset stripping, and bidness, eh? civil war is juuuuuust good enough to have to ride to the rescue one way or another. then on to VZ, of course…and right on cue:
    (plus the fascist youth are burning down the colleges, claiming it’s maduro’s commies’, utter nonsense)

  49. To juliania: i haven’t even had time to watch it yet, so thanks for the heads-up. sorry to have riled you, but in the current black and white world re: the great bear, yes, i do think it matters if one says that it’s a democracy, and the people are faring well there. revisionist history can be healthy, if nuanced, but damaging when it’s just pro-russian *because* putin, and not necessarily the kremlin per se, is seemingly behaving as the only adult in the room

    i did google the question, and found quite a number of different opinions, so now i *may* have at least learned a few guideposts as measurements. i’d asked decider on my post if he reckoned that putin claiming he was in favor of federalization was a lie. i sure as hell don’t really know, but i know he’d hope to hell it wouldn’t be come a nato federation if that’s even possible.

    me. i’m getting tired of the fact that putin and his rule is off-limits for discussion on accounta (as fairleft) it might seem that ‘the left’ is divided, or ‘russophobic’ (fearful? not just critical?) and give ammo the the msm (as if they give a tinker’s damn what bloggers think).

    the saker? beats me, but he seems to have a particular slant himself. truth?
    what a moving target that can be. anyhoo, sorry to have irked you.

  50. Irked? I had to go back and read my post. Ah, see that it looks like I’m accusing you of that ‘piling onto leaders’ thing – far from it, no way!

    I was meaning I was tired of US policy demonizing such leaders (Saddam, Khaddafi, whatsisname in Syria – the mind is not what it was – and now Putin.) Sorry, I meant no aspersions on your fine self, just trying to make the point that every leader has a dark side (even Kennedy, whom I loved, apparently did).

    It sickens me when the ptb use such as an excuse to invade, an excuse to wade in and wreck the place – we know how well THAT’S been working!

    Somehow, these leaders with feet of clay, probably having made wrong, even ghastly, decisions in the past, hold their individual countries together so folk can live and shop and just plain BE – which to me is the bottom line – and it being an imperfect world, we (as a nation) should let them do so and concentrate on fixing living conditions here at home. But doesn’t mean as individuals we don’t get to make those important critiques if we have the smarts (I don’t).

    Anyway that’s the long explanation of my short rant and in no way did I intend to direct it at you personally. Sorry, very sorry, I gave that impression.

    [Foot in mouth, I shall now retire to the garden aphids ;) ]

  51. well good-o, then, juliania. i did indeed mistake your meaning….and target, as it were. :) i agree that in so many of these cases, scant concern is evidenced for the citizenry, unless trumped up or even faked examples can be used to make the case for either more war, US/NATO ‘rescue’ or exporting democracy.

    it seems as though resistance to the junta is spreading further in ukraine, and as the osce and nuland have nixed negotiations, it will get worse before it gets…worser.

    it seems nuland doesn’t have her own twit acct, so folks on her pal geoffrey pyatt’s speak for her, jayzus it’s all so dark.

  52. May they gag on their super-sized Svoboda fries (and they’re Projecting PLUTOCRACY).

  53. You might want to watch the last several videos Saker has up of Victory Day in Mariopol. I love it that the citizens didn’t want tanks to be part of their parade. (At least, that’s how I interpret it – gotta learn Russian!)

    And as usual, Norman Pollack makes my point better than I could:

    “Does Putin have a hit list and Terror Tuesdays sit around personally authorizing Assassinations? Has Putin mounted two unjustified interventions, Iraq and Afghanistan, in sync with GWB? Has Putin reached the same degree of contempt for civil liberties via massive surveillance, eavesdropping on foreign leaders, and using the Espionage Act to silence whistleblowers? Has Putin engineered the coup that toppled the Ukrainian democratically-elected president, or for that matter sponsored paramilitary operations of CIA-JSOC for regime change? Has Putin developed the “pivot,” the Pacific-first strategy, for isolating China–or kept a global network of military bases, or sought a military alliance (NATO) right up to the border of America?”

    Awful stuff from Consortium at today, though. Shame on them. Did see a link Demian put on MOA (yes, I get around a bit) about the O women in China – those girls now live in a gold plated, platinum Dior bubble – I’m remembering how cute they were at the first inauguration (sigh.)

    Those parents have a lot to answer for.

  54. Really an excellent primer on what happened to the Baltic States and how they were induced to vote for austerity in Latvia by the promotion of anti-Russian-minority sentiment – Michael Hudson at

    “Like Russians in the wake of 1991, Latvians were so demoralized by their Soviet experience that they gave neoliberals a free hand in designing their economy. As in Russia, the neoliberal swing to privatization and outright opposition to government regulation and central bank money creation was more extreme than in West European economies.”

    The article is long, but I skimmed the first two thirds, think the best of it comes as it points out in the last part by example what is in store for a divided Ukraine. Before the encampment was burned in Odessa, some nice ladies were standing on the street just furious at the unkempt occupants handing out leaflets to promote a federal Ukraine. And a gathering of such upright citizens were clapping as the Right Sektor goons marched in. (They wear camouflaged uniforms and muddy flattish helmets.)

    Enough to gladden a banker’s heart.

  55. oh, thank you both. you might also want to read the blindpig’s post on Gallicia at my.fdl; fascinating history told by both him, his friend, and ohio barbarian. but allow me to skip a day. yesterday i finally hit the wall on the ugliness the neo-nazis aided by the West have brought to the people, and i got sincerely depressed and sick to my stomach..

    so i put together a post on the citizen demonstrations against the APD murder machine. i’ll bring it over here soon as i can, but for now…i need a break. okay?

  56. Take a break, wendye!

    For my summation today:

    You don’t have to read it all – my comment is at the bottom so far, at 13:29 (I’d hope to be cheering you with this take.)

  57. A Mother’s Day Proclamation, by Julia Ward Howe, Boston, 1870

    “Arise then…women of this day!
    Arise, all women who have hearts!
    Whether your baptism be of water or of tears!
    Say firmly:
    “We will not have questions answered by irrelevant agencies,
    Our husbands will not come to us, reeking with carnage,
    For caresses and applause.
    Our sons shall not be taken from us to unlearn
    All that we have been able to teach them of charity, mercy and patience.
    We, the women of one country,
    Will be too tender of those of another country
    To allow our sons to be trained to injure theirs.”

    From the bosum of a devastated Earth a voice goes up with
    Our own. It says: “Disarm! Disarm!
    The sword of murder is not the balance of justice.”
    Blood does not wipe our dishonor,
    Nor violence indicate possession.
    As men have often forsaken the plough and the anvil at the summons of war,
    Let women now leave all that may be left of home
    For a great and earnest day of counsel.
    Let them meet first, as women, to bewail and commemorate the dead.
    Let them solemnly take counsel with each other as to the means
    Whereby the great human family can live in peace…
    Each bearing after his own time the sacred impress, not of Caesar,
    But of God –
    In the name of womanhood and humanity, I earnestly ask
    That a general congress of women without limit of nationality,
    May be appointed and held at someplace deemed most convenient
    And the earliest period consistent with its objects,
    To promote the alliance of the different nationalities,
    The amicable settlement of international questions,
    The great and general interests of peace.”


  58. ‘After Chaotic Autonomy Votes, Negotiations Could Be Sole Path to Prevent Ukraine’s Disintegration’

    good to see that amy had him on again, not the kyiv post’s christopher miller

    in case anyone wants to argue that NATO is not heavily involved in making sure that ukraine doesn’t turn to the EU or to NATO:

  59. juliania: it’s a good comment, and i hope that you’re right about the pravy secktor and svobodans being conflicted. i am not quite so sure, i confess. but i thank you for trying to cause me to feel a bit more…cheerful. freaks, thugs…history is replete with them. germany’s part in all of this (round table, leaking academi (blackwater) and cia involvement: how very interesting, eh?

  60. US’ same pattern of putsching EU into World War on Eurasia as during the Republican Depression of the 1930s. Bush, Prescotting FUEHRERWARD!

  61. I just posted this at fdl’s news – I think it is a good discussion, brought up some suggestions of blowback to the EU that I hadn’t thought of. Wendye, really I’m no expert on these matters, strictly a voyeur, but I liked one comment at Saker I read a while back about a Chinese (Tao I think) attitude on punching water – can’t requote it, sorry, but it is all about unintended consequences – (okay, maybe the Zen one also about the boy who wins a horse -good; falls off and breaks his leg – bad) – which this discussion also references a lot. I’d just like those unintended consequences to be positive ones ;~}

    And of course there’s always: It ain’t over till the fat lady sings!

  62. bruce: i ha thought that prescott did bidness with the nazis, thus advised against war. but as i sometimes say, ‘i was absent the week they taught us history’.

    the zen one as i remember it was about the inherent trouble of calling one event: good luck or bad luck. i had peeked in, seen the discussion was 27 minutes or something, saw the faces (biased me!), and that moderator i loathe to the Nth degree, read soe comments, and backed on out.

    i will say that i seem not to be as enamored of the saker as so many of you are. how to say it? i think that he also spins the new as he presents it an opines on it, and may be even more prone to that since his audience has grown almost exponentially (to an order of magnitude? whatever that conveys, lol) since this time last year, when the site was as busy as this one. :)

    i often think that you are often more in search of a positive outcome, so have a tendency to see one. i was trying to say that yes, the arc of history *may* bend toward truth and justice, but…it might be a mighty broad and long arc, no?
    zo. while i am definitely anti-Imperialist, and believe i can suss out some of the truth of our ‘leaders’ and the deep state ngo’s’ expenditures and overall desires, i still check out many sources (from spin and spin +, to full-tilt propaganda) to try to see what might be really going on, both geopolitically and on the ground all over ukraine.

    toward that end, i even watch the fooking twitter thangs at the state dept (including the dark pyatt), graham phillips (rt photojournalist), howard amos, and tra la la. and i think rt isn’t trustworthy except for interviews, nor are many that ecahn links to, excepts as ‘stopped clocks’. :)

    but..i got so bloomin’ caught up in a local story that i spent my whole morning searching out links, reports, maps, and before i knew it…it was noon, and not one of my chores had i completed. uh-oh. :)

  63. i watched the ‘cross-talk’ video in snatches, but ‘unintended consequences’ barely covers it! (by the by, no one even thought to mention libya, did they?)
    wish mr. lavelle could learn to ask questions instead of run off at the mouth.

    but oh, my, it’s getting weird out there. and oh, me, i missed the Mariupol massacre; i must fin some info. dire, but some (sorry) pecker measuring goin’ on:

    and i checked to see when nuland ‘got grilled by congress’ in this RT video; loads of ‘alternative sites’ picked it up, but was this back some time and just being cobbled together now? anyone? i couldn’t find a c-span link in the cache, got in too big a hurry to look at the website…

  64. zo, to stephen cohen’s points about the US breezing right by angela merkel’s suggestion for ’round table talks’ (he left out that the OSCE had also said ‘meh’ to the idea, here comes germany’s foreign minister to ‘help make talks a reality. but his quoted verbiage seems to be a wee bit counter-productive right out of the starting gate:

    “The German foreign minister has arrived in Ukraine saying he hopes round-table talks between politicians and civil groups this week will help disarm pro-Russia separatists and improve the atmosphere for elections in the country later this month.”

    “We also support your efforts to launch a national dialogue, *under Ukrainian ownership*, here in your country, through round-tables, at the central level and in the regions,” Steinmeier told a joint news conference with Yatsenyuk. “I hope that under these conditions it is possible to take steps to bring back occupied buildings and eventually to disarm illegal groups,” said the German foreign minister.”

    WTH does ‘under Ukrainian ownership’ mean?

    i will say that the opposition leader in donetsk seems to have exceeded his authority in asking russia to absorb their ‘independent nation’, as from what we know, that was not the question on the referendum ballot.

  65. She did appear recently, I believe May 6th. As to info on Mariupol, I found this comment at Saker the most informative when I followed some links at the news site:
    Anonymous said…
    It seems that Mariupol policemen have refused yesterday to take action against the pro-russian activists. The police HQ have then been surendered by the ukrainian National Guard, and Right Sektor militants. The policemen refused to vacate the building and to hand it to pro-ukrainians. The pro-ukrainian forces then opened fire and there was a gunfight followed with the shelling of the police HQ by armored vehicles and tanks. These armored vehicles have also opened fire on the unarmed civilians who were having a Victory Day parade. Snipers have also targetted the pro-russian demonstrators. Anyway here is the site of rhe Mariupol News :

    Have a look and spread the information.

    09 May, 2014 17:36

  66. In that quotation above, I believe ‘surendered’ means ‘surrounded’. I don’t believe the tanks opened fire on the parade itself – the video I saw showed them going at a high rate of speed through empty streets after snipers had killed several apparently random people on the streets, and one of the three tanks apparently broke down and was abandoned. (The snipers may have been operators of the abandoned tank
    before being picked up by another and rushed away.) Definite incursion and police building shelled at least, with apparently casualties there, plus several shot people lying out on the street.

  67. My conclusion, both for the Odessa massacre and the Mariupol incursion, was that Maidan coup government wants separation passions ignited in southern areas, so that corporate interests get western Ukraine for their own greedy takeover, and shove the south onto an unwilling Russia to burden them – win/win.

    Hence for the people’s sake, keeping the country together is to me the best option. (Don’t think Saker agrees – he seems to be pushing annexation) I’ll just add that the ‘inevitable fragmentation’ theme is very present in the Matthiessen novel also – I didn’t touch on it in my review as I was hunting up positive aspects myself, always will.

  68. I didn’t comment on your Crosstalk observations, wendye – I’ll try to keep it brief. The ‘unintended consequences’ meme was addressed to the EU, which in supporting fragmentation perhaps is becoming vulnerable to similar instabilities against them rather than against Russia. I thought that was a good argument – don’t know the personalities involved so I can’t judge on that.

    I don’t believe I am overlooking the larger picture. I am, though, very supportive of ordinary folk not being displaced by corporate interests, as you are as well. At the Saker site, much is propaganda of a different sort, but the comments are far ranging, some good, some not. Check out my comments there – just trying to do what I think we all should be doing:

    Plant peace.

  69. ooh, thank you, ww. i really will try to read these again and answer later; i’m working on a local story as i said (it’s really bugging me), and it’s crazy-hard for me to change over to a different place, story, characters, sadly. sitting in front of mine eyes is the sentence that i/we should check out your comments. alas, i tried at your request a couple times, but reading there i quite hard for me, and the comment streams are quite long as a rule. but i am absolutely sure that you are doing what you feel need to be done. of that none of us would have any doubt.

    plant peace, yes, and plant justice as well.

    added: phooey, i’d meant to leave the #euromaidanPR twitter account. a bit different narrative they bring. :(

  70. thank you for the comment and interpretation. graham phillips says he’ll have a three-part explanation of events at mariupol, and has a photo of the ‘white van’ said to be driving bodies away from the PD.

    the other part of the discussion, iirc, was essentially the tragic flaw in the empire’s FP interventions: ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’. making nice and arming bad guys, then on and on.

    but i think that this is very true that you said about yourself: ‘ I didn’t touch on it in my review as I was hunting up positive aspects myself, always will.’ sometimes seeing from a particular slant can get in the way, and i reckon that if it’s true that the insurgents just killed six ukrainian army members (what in the world is the word for that?), we should say that out loud, and not obfuscate the truth.

    what i remembered was that during morsi’s brief rein in egypt, and that you seemed far better read than i on events there, it was easy for me to believe that he was…less bad, i guess, than he really was. so wanting to find the positive aspects, imo, can hamper seeing the truth of a situation (if there is in fact a ‘greater truth’).

    i don’t have much of an opinion on ukraine remaining united, but from the looks of it, it doesn’t seem likely. and to your ‘in the name of corporate interests’ i add ‘the interests of NATO and zbig, et. al to crush russia once and for all. but the news that joe biden’s son hunter just took a job with a big oil company in ukraine makes all of this even more clearly the Bidness of Empirein all its guises, eh?

    oh, and i keep meaning to look up ‘finlandization’ that folks keep talking about. i will. my day’s plans got srsly derailed, perhaps tomorrow.

    added: i had meant to say also that what i hope for the ukrainian people is self-determination, which i guess would come under the heading of ‘justice’.

  71. Sounds good to me, wendye, and a war crime is a war crime no matter who does it, as sadly we know from direct experience in these matters. I think findlandization is the term for remaining neutral in a betwixt and between geographical location, not sure how Finland manages that – Finns I have known are a mighty proud bunch though, I must say, very smart also. But I’m not howling after anybody’s blood – sorry if I gave that impression.

    I look forward to reading what you are concocting! I sure hope I haven’t offended mafr, really miss his presence. I’m afraid he construed what I posted the wrong way when I was trying to separate faith on a personal level from national politics. Put my foot in my mouth there I guess, and I am really very sorry.

  72. ah, jeez, i feel terrible that i/we turned him off so completely, if indeed that’s why he isn’t here any longer. i did email him a week or so ago expressing that, and saying how much i miss him.

    ‘after anyone’s blood’? no, you never gave that impression.

    ah, bugger; that piece is trying my patience, and partly because i may be trying to tell too much of it. basically, a group of mmmm….sagebrush rebellion folks staged a protest at the mouth of a SE utah canyon that had been closed to motorized vehicles. and i think it’s likely that as cliven bundy seemed to have, they will win the issue in the end. it bodes quite poorly for the future when radical anti-federal govt folks can ‘exert their brand of influence’, let’s say… i will try to finish it, but it all pretty much makes me ill.

    but the history of it all has been going on since 2005, and i’m having a bit of a time not using every swear word i know.

    sleep well; mr. wd just got home from a very long and likely contentious meeting of the water conservancy district. water wars during drought years and all that…. :)

  73. Gorsuch, Gianelli, eh! Watt? This federal Koch-FAP (Fur Amerikan Profit) ENABLING’s been going on At LEAST since the Raygun era from EightyOn!
    Bundy’s buckskin-heads are the Vaterland’s Right Sektor version of this:
    – i.e., “Obama’s legacy”: You can putsch lipstick on a fascist pig; but he’s $TILL A FASCIST PIG!

  74. Doing a foodtrek Friday I almost missed this important Michael Hudson piece – rounds out the discussion well, I think, with footnotes, comments also with links having made my Sunday morning reading a lengthy process but kudos to for fielding the discussion.

    Also a headsup on GreyDog’s posting at fdl of Mariupol videos I hadn’t seen before – gives the actual anti-civilian onslaught a reality that makes one call out ‘fascisti!’ along with the peaceful civilians amongst the flowering tulip trees.

    And at the same time we would instinctively call for assistance to these brave people, whether from east or west – we know from past sad occurrences that such an escalation would bring more harm to the populations involved.

    Stay out of the Ukraine, WOMD from any other place on the planet – stay out!

  75. yes, i’d read victoria parker’s piece graydog brought, and had thought to bring a couple videos and narratives here, but for her adamant demand that all must be included, lol. no bits, no bobs… okaaaay.

    but as to your ‘escalation” meme, i’d just posted something similar to wayoutwest on the thread, but more like wwIII. right sektor and svoboda seem to have no reservations about murdering folks in the most grizzly ways.

    i will say that i hope that parker’s translations and identifications are all correct; i got very tangled up trying to make out what graham phillips was presenting. (sp): i couldn’t make out anything since there was no anglaise.

    but really, believe it or not, it’s africa to which the US is pivoting, and those kidnapped girls are just the ticket for ‘help’, US military style. poor africa, once again.

    busy chore day, i’ll read when i can (or watch; i expect it’s a video).

  76. Most likely you are correct, wendye, on Africa. Have to get Putin chopped down to size first is all – can’t have the plain speaking Lavrov spelling out that one the way he did on Syria. I don’t think it’s working. GreyDog has another full treatment up at fdl today (Sunday) on Odessa – I haven’t gone to all his links (and warning – the Michael Hudson is a long read.)

    There is a brief video at the Greydog today, last one I think, that has plain subtitles to sort out what I was trying to tell you about Odessa, might make more sense to you. Not long.

  77. Bruce: once again i’m not quite able to parse your comment, and i dunno how i missed it earlier. but i do look forward to watching the video. thank you.

    Juliania: yes, too long for today, and i may go find it at his site, as yves’ place is another hard place for me to read. so very…white, lol. and orange.

    che put this up at jbade’s video thread. for me, later reading, but you? :)

  78. Also from jbade’s RT video thread …
    I think this is the Lavrov interview on Bloomberg referenced in the RT video [@FDL] —

  79. Thanks to you both. That will give me an early morning read, and I’m grateful as I have reservations about Saker’s blog – he seems to follow a very different Orthodox Christian bent than my own, and I rather see what might have offended mafr in some of his comments. I have begged out of the discussions there, as politely as I could. Will go back to lurking ;)

  80. just a brief ‘good mornin’ all’ drive-by link dropping, including propaganda/bias alerts. more later; i’m watching for cecily mcmillan’s sentence. these came in on liberty underground’s newsletter.

    oh, and juliania; i’m pretty clear on odessa: murderous thugs. it was mariupol that is harder to sort through.

  81. This is the final interview question from your Putin/China link, wendye:

    Q: In 2015, our countries will celebrate the 70th anniversary of Victory over fascism. What is the impact of joint Russian-Chinese efforts to oppose the attempts aimed at challenging the results of World War II?

    VP: It is true that the attempts to rewrite and distort history are becoming more frequent.

    Four years ago Russia and China adopted a Joint Statement on the 65th Anniversary of Victory in the Second World War.

    We share an idea that it is unacceptable to revise the results of the war, as the consequences will be extremely grave.
    It is clearly evident from the tragic events currently unfolding in Ukraine, where violent neo-Nazis are waging a real campaign of terror against civilians.

    I would like to express my gratitude to our Chinese friends for cherishing the memory of thousands of our compatriots, who sacrificed their lives to liberate Northeast China from invaders.

    Next year we will hold a range of joint events to mark the 70th anniversary of Victory both in the bilateral and the SCO format. During these events, youth will be in the focus of our work.

    We will certainly continue to oppose attempts to falsify history, heroize fascists and their accomplices, blacken the memory and reputation of heroic liberators.
    Interesting, da?

  82. Fascinating article from wsws, wendye. I actually have two links to such shenanigans – president of my college took time out in team restructuring Iraq after Bush invasion to supervise the ‘conversion’ of universities (pretty sure he quickly took himself outa there).

    An event at the time of my marriage, so back in the early 60’s: my soon to be inlaws went to Ethiopia from the University of Utah, to set up for the Emperor a brand new University. (“Political and moral respectability.”) All they or we knew, nice goodwill project – few years passed; emperor was violently overthrown. Way back then…

    Mariupol. Pro-coup armed groups surrounding the burning police building and preventing firetrucks until the blaze was well underway, while most of the populace was at or in the march on Victory Day. Coup folk had fired into the building where police had presumably refused to follow an officer’s orders – coup government had decreed no celebration on Victory Day. Unarmed civilians, some shot.

  83. “Plant peace, yes, justice as well…”

    Plant peace; harvest justice!

  84. harvest justice, yes. might be the obverse, but: yes.

    i find myself in need of a break from fdl, and will try to catch up here soon. tomorrow is bread day, and i really need to do some major mending, including patching bed quilts, which requires the present lean floor, but also some major tugging of thick layered materials thru the sewing machine. alas, i have hurt my back, so who knows what tomorrow may bring?

    but soon, i almost promise. :)

  85. not quite yesterday, but: from the guardian yesterday:
    “Ukrainian troops killed as pro-Russia militants attack checkpoint: Deadliest raid in weeks of fighting leaves at least 11 soldiers dead days before presidential election”

    From the Saker:
    ” Ukraine SITREP May 22th, 19:32 UTC/Zulu: Ukie death squad murders conscripts
    Something really weird has just happened in the Ukraine. Everybody agrees that an attack took place on a checkpoint of the Ukrainian national guard near the city of Volnovakha (see map). 35 soldiers were wounded, 15 died (other figures quote 8 confirmed dead and an unknown number of evacuated bodies of attackers who got killed; one source says “13-20 fatalities”). The surviving soldiers say that out of 53 men, only 7 survived.

    So far all the sources point to the same sequence of events. Here is what I pieced together:

    A Ukrainian national guard unit (according to one source the 51st motorized brigade which had been hastily made up with middle-aged reservists) brought in from the city of Vinnitsa. For three days were were told to man a checkpoint, but today they were given the order to attack civilians in a nearby village. The unit refused and the commander announced that he would withdraw because “there were no terrorists here, only civilians”. At around 5AM a black sedan, two jeeps and several vehicles (vans and armored) of the company Privat Bank (belongs to the Jewish oligarch Kolomoiski) carrying members of the “Donbass” and “Azov” death-squads drove to the checkpoint and opened fire with everything they had. The soldiers fired back as best they could. The attack lasted 15min after which the attackers put on some Saint George ribbons and beat up the surviving and wounded soldiers while telling them that they were from the Donbass Resistance forces. Not a single solider believed them.

    About one hour later two or three more helicopters were seen shooting at the destroyed vehicles of the attackers in an apparent attempt to conceal their origin (Privat Bank). Still, witnesses have categorically identified the vans used by Privat Bank. There is also video footage confirming this.

    This is a video showing the attack helicopters and the explosion of what was either an ammo dump or the ammo load of an infantry fighting vehicle.” videos included

    so: mercenaries working for an oligarch kill their own…or someone’s own, at any rate. bbc does report that one hospitalized (iirc) backs up the alternative version).

  86. Same “blocking group” tactic, inflicted in retribution for “insubordination”; as in the original rising of barbarism in central Eurasia, epitomized by Nazi invasion ‘Barbarossa’!

  87. okay, i read the first few wiki portions on the ‘operation barbarossa’ entry. grisly, ugly, starved prisoners to death. millions? but i didn’t come by then to a killing for insubordination part. i trust that it happened, and was done by the nazis?

    juliania: that is a good and easy synopsis of mariupol. i was getting flummoxed trying to keep track of the false flags, the herding into soccer tents, and all that. and okay: more army killings of police, this time, for what amounted to insubordination. then lighting the building on fire.

    and it’s rather old news by now, but when the Times and the Guardian had reported that ‘the steelworkers’ were clearing out the pro-Russian rabble and rubble, chris floyd had an update on one of his posts:

    “UPDATE: It looks like L’il Hunter and Devon might be in high cotton. On Thursday night, the New York Times reports that Rinat Akhmetov, Ukraine’s richest man and once a major backer of Ukraine’s ousted pro-Russian president, Victor Yanukovich, has now thrown his support and his money behind the American-backed Kyiv regime. According to the Times (which of course doesn’t breathe a word of Akhmetov’s unsavoury past), Akhmetov has ordered “his” workers onto the streets of Mariupol, Donetsk and other eastern Ukrainian cities to reassert the control of the Kyiv government. The pro-Russian forces have “melted away,” even in Donetsk, ground zero of the resistance, and oligarchical control is being re-established.
    Of course, Akhmetov has long-standing ties to John McCain and his rightwing network, so it’s not surprising to see him turning his ermine coat this way and that as the prevailing winds blow across Ukraine. The oligarchs are banding together on every side of the ostensible conflict — Ukranian, Russian, Republican, Democrat — and the fix, as always, as ever, is in.”

    about mafr: knowing his high regard for glenn greenwald, i’d grabbed the link he’d posted at TI on ‘the David project’ thinking he might like it. but then i started to read it, and thought ‘not so much’. but he is back commenting at fdl again, so…good on hi.

    and thank you for posting the pithiest quotes. wayoutwest doesn’t seem to the only one pissed that putin is ‘selling out ukrainian separatists’, but i tried to answer him a bit as well. (as i said: old news now) i just saw yellowsnapdragon say on a front page thread that putin isn’t evil. guess that’s a judgment call i don’t have to make, eh? :) whew!

    state dept had a live statement from michael froman (us tr) on negotiations in VA for TAFTA, but i didn’t look in. just more secret bullshit and lies, last time i looked at the trade rep’s site. to many ways for our heads to swivel.

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