‘The Meaning of July Fourth for the Negro’ by Frederick Douglass


Via Black Agenda Report, bless them.  .Douglass gave the speech in Rochester, NY on July 5, 1852. If you don’t care to read it all, or don’t have the time just now, please at least read the closing poem written by Abolitionist William Loyd Garrison sometime in the 1800s, ‘Triumph of Freedom’ .

“Fellow Citizens, I am not wanting in respect for the fathers of this republic. The signers of the Declaration of Independence were brave men. They were great men, too great enough to give frame to a great age. It does not often happen to a nation to raise, at one time, such a number of truly great men. The point from which I am compelled to view them is not, certainly, the most favorable; and yet I cannot contemplate their great deeds with less than admiration. They were statesmen, patriots and heroes, and for the good they did, and the principles they contended for, I will unite with you to honor their memory….

…Fellow-citizens, pardon me, allow me to ask, why am I called upon to speak here to-day? What have I, or those I represent, to do with your national independence? Are the great principles of political freedom and of natural justice, embodied in that Declaration of Independence, extended to us? and am I, therefore, called upon to bring our humble offering to the national altar, and to confess the benefits and express devout gratitude for the blessings resulting from your independence to us?

Would to God, both for your sakes and ours, that an affirmative answer could be truthfully returned to these questions! Then would my task be light, and my burden easy and delightful. For who is there so cold, that a nation’s sympathy could not warm him? Who so obdurate and dead to the claims of gratitude, that would not thankfully acknowledge such priceless benefits? Who so stolid and selfish, that would not give his voice to swell the hallelujahs of a nation’s jubilee, when the chains of servitude had been torn from his limbs? I am not that man. In a case like that, the dumb might eloquently speak, and the “lame man leap as an hart.”

But such is not the state of the case. I say it with a sad sense of the disparity between us. I am not included within the pale of glorious anniversary! Your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between us. The blessings in which you, this day, rejoice, are not enjoyed in common. The rich inheritance of justice, liberty, prosperity and independence, bequeathed by your fathers, is shared by you, not by me. The sunlight that brought light and healing to you, has brought stripes and death to me. This Fourth July is yours, not mine. You may rejoice, I must mourn. To drag a man in fetters into the grand illuminated temple of liberty, and call upon him to join you in joyous anthems, were inhuman mockery and sacrilegious irony. Do you mean, citizens, to mock me, by asking me to speak to-day? If so, there is a parallel to your conduct. And let me warn you that it is dangerous to copy the example of a nation whose crimes, towering up to heaven, were thrown down by the breath of the Almighty, burying that nation in irrevocable ruin! I can to-day take up the plaintive lament of a peeled and woe-smitten people!

“By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down. Yea! we wept when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there, they that carried us away captive, required of us a song; and they who wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How can we sing the Lord’s song in a strange land? If I forget thee, 0 Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth.”

It is dangerous to copy the example of a nation whose crimes, towering up to heaven, were thrown down by the breath of the Almighty, burying that nation in irrevocable ruin!”

Fellow-citizens, above your national, tumultuous joy, I hear the mournful wail of millions! whose chains, heavy and grievous yesterday, are, to-day, rendered more intolerable by the jubilee shouts that reach them. If I do forget, if I do not faithfully remember those bleeding children of sorrow this day, “may my right hand forget her cunning, and may my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth!” To forget them, to pass lightly over their wrongs, and to chime in with the popular theme, would be treason most scandalous and shocking, and would make me a reproach before God and the world. My subject, then, fellow-citizens, is American slavery. I shall see this day and its popular characteristics from the slave’s point of view. Standing there identified with the American bondman, making his wrongs mine, I do not hesitate to declare, with all my soul, that the character and conduct of this nation never looked blacker to me than on this 4th of July! Whether we turn to the declarations of the past, or to the professions of the present, the conduct of the nation seems equally hideous and revolting. America.is false to the past, false to the present, and solemnly binds herself to be false to the future. Standing with God and the crushed and bleeding slave on this occasion, I will, in the name of humanity which is outraged, in the name of liberty which is fettered, in the name of the constitution and the Bible which are disregarded and trampled upon, dare to call in question and to denounce, with all the emphasis I can command, everything that serves to perpetuate slavery the great sin and shame of America! “I will not equivocate; I will not excuse”; I will use the severest language I can command; and yet not one word shall escape me that any man, whose judgment is not blinded by prejudice, or who is not at heart a slaveholder, shall not confess to be right and just.

But I fancy I hear some one of my audience say, “It is just in this circumstance that you and your brother abolitionists fail to make a favorable impression on the public mind. Would you argue more, an denounce less; would you persuade more, and rebuke less; your cause would be much more likely to succeed.” But, I submit, where all is plain there is nothing to be argued. What point in the anti-slavery creed would you have me argue? On what branch of the subject do the people of this country need light? Must I undertake to prove that the slave is a man? That point is conceded already. Nobody doubts it. The slaveholders themselves acknowledge it in the enactment of laws for their government. They acknowledge it when they punish disobedience on the part of the slave. There are seventy-two crimes in the State of Virginia which, if committed by a black man (no matter how ignorant he be), subject him to the punishment of death; while only two of the same crimes will subject a white man to the like punishment. What is this but the acknowledgment that the slave is a moral, intellectual, and responsible being? The manhood of the slave is conceded. It is admitted in the fact that Southern statute books are covered with enactments forbidding, under severe fines and penalties, the teaching of the slave to read or to write. When you can point to any such laws in reference to the beasts of the field, then I may consent to argue the manhood of the slave. When the dogs in your streets, when the fowls of the air, when the cattle on your hills, when the fish of the sea, and the reptiles that crawl, shall be unable to distinguish the slave from a brute, then will I argue with you that the slave is a man!

The character and conduct of this nation never looked blacker to me than on this 4th of July!”

For the present, it is enough to affirm the equal manhood of the Negro race. Is it not astonishing that, while we are ploughing, planting, and reaping, using all kinds of mechanical tools, erecting houses, constructing bridges, building ships, working in metals of brass, iron, copper, silver and gold; that, while we are reading, writing and ciphering, acting as clerks, merchants and secretaries, having among us lawyers, doctors, ministers, poets, authors, editors, orators and teachers; that, while we are engaged in all manner of enterprises common to other men, digging gold in California, capturing the whale in the Pacific, feeding sheep and cattle on the hill-side, living, moving, acting, thinking, planning, living in families as husbands, wives and children, and, above all, confessing and worshipping the Christian’s God, and looking hopefully for life and immortality beyond the grave, we are called upon to prove that we are men!

Would you have me argue that man is entitled to liberty? that he is the rightful owner of his own body? You have already declared it. Must I argue the wrongfulness of slavery? Is that a question for Republicans? Is it to be settled by the rules of logic and argumentation, as a matter beset with great difficulty, involving a doubtful application of the principle of justice, hard to be understood? How should I look to-day, in the presence of Americans, dividing, and subdividing a discourse, to show that men have a natural right to freedom? speaking of it relatively and positively, negatively and affirmatively. To do so, would be to make myself ridiculous, and to offer an insult to your understanding. There is not a man beneath the canopy of heaven that does not know that slavery is wrong for him.

What, am I to argue that it is wrong to make men brutes, to rob them of their liberty, to work them without wages, to keep them ignorant of their relations to their fellow men, to beat them with sticks, to flay their flesh with the lash, to load their limbs with irons, to hunt them with dogs, to sell them at auction, to sunder their families, to knock out their teeth, to burn their flesh, to starve them into obedience and submission to their mastcrs? Must I argue that a system thus marked with blood, and stained with pollution, is wrong? No! I will not. I have better employment for my time and strength than such arguments would imply.

What, then, remains to be argued? Is it that slavery is not divine; that God did not establish it; that our doctors of divinity are mistaken? There is blasphemy in the thought. That which is inhuman, cannot be divine! Who can reason on such a proposition? They that can, may; I cannot. The time for such argument is passed.

At a time like this, scorching irony, not convincing argument, is needed. O! had I the ability, and could reach the nation’s ear, I would, to-day, pour out a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm, and stern rebuke. For it is not light that is needed, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake. The feeling of the nation must be quickened; the conscience of the nation must be roused; the propriety of the nation must be startled; the hypocrisy of the nation must be exposed; and its crimes against God and man must be proclaimed and denounced.

What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy — a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour.

For revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival.”

Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival….

…Allow me to say, in conclusion, notwithstanding the dark picture I have this day presented, of the state of the nation, I do not despair of this country. There are forces in operation which must inevitably work the downfall of slavery. “The arm of the Lord is not shortened,” and the doom of slavery is certain. I, therefore, leave off where I began, with hope. While drawing encouragement from “the Declaration of Independence,” the great principles it contains, and the genius of American Institutions, my spirit is also cheered by the obvious tendencies of the age. Nations do not now stand in the same relation to each other that they did ages ago. No nation can now shut itself up from the surrounding world and trot round in the same old path of its fathers without interference. The time was when such could be done. Long established customs of hurtful character could formerly fence themselves in, and do their evil work with social impunity. Knowledge was then confined and enjoyed by the privileged few, and the multitude walked on in mental darkness. But a change has now come over the affairs of mankind. Walled cities and empires have become unfashionable. The arm of commerce has borne away the gates of the strong city. Intelligence is penetrating the darkest corners of the globe. It makes its pathway over and under the sea, as well as on the earth. Wind, steam, and lightning are its chartered agents. Oceans no longer divide, but link nations together. From Boston to London is now a holiday excursion. Space is comparatively annihilated. — Thoughts expressed on one side of the Atlantic are distinctly heard on the other.

The far off and almost fabulous Pacific rolls in grandeur at our feet. The Celestial Empire, the mystery of ages, is being solved. The fiat of the Almighty, “Let there be Light,” has not yet spent its force. No abuse, no outrage whether in taste, sport or avarice, can now hide itself from the all-pervading light. The iron shoe, and crippled foot of China must be seen in contrast with nature. Africa must rise and put on her yet unwoven garment. ‘Ethiopia shall stretch out her hand unto God.” In the fervent aspirations of William Lloyd Garrison, I say, and let every heart join in saying it:

God speed the year of jubilee
The wide world o’er!
When from their galling chains set free,
Th’ oppress’d shall vilely bend the knee,
And wear the yoke of tyranny
Like brutes no more.
That year will come, and freedom’s reign,
To man his plundered rights again
Restore.

God speed the day when human blood
Shall cease to flow!
In every clime be understood,
The claims of human brotherhood,
And each return for evil, good,
Not blow for blow;
That day will come all feuds to end,
And change into a faithful friend
Each foe.

God speed the hour, the glorious hour,
When none on earth
Shall exercise a lordly power,
Nor in a tyrant’s presence cower;
But to all manhood’s stature tower,
By equal birth!
That hour will come, to each, to all,
And from his Prison-house, to thrall
Go forth.

Until that year, day, hour, arrive,
With head, and heart, and hand I’ll strive,
To break the rod, and rend the gyve,
The spoiler of his prey deprive —
So witness Heaven!
And never from my chosen post,
Whate’er the peril or the cost,
Be driven.

 So very timeless, these words, yes?  Revolutionaries, both of them.  Emphatically relevant to our present plights, and so inspirational and adequate to our tasks today.

Two versions of: ‘Rivers of Babylon’; enjoy:

(cross-posted at My.Firedoglake.com)

44 responses to “‘The Meaning of July Fourth for the Negro’ by Frederick Douglass

  1. The meaning of July Fourth for me in Cochiti Lake:

    This morning as I was planting up my one beautiful surviving moskovite, Natasha,(she’s a beauty – thanks, wendye!) there came (after the garbage truck Friday go round) a stream of the township’s and pueblo’s volunteer ambulances and firetrucks sirens screaming away – an impressive display of helpful folk, extreme noise in our quiet little town.

    And for the first time I went out in my barefeet and undone hair and dirty muu muu and waved instead of cowering in the shadows and wishing the sirens away. Because they came (not all of them, but a fire truck did and an ambulance, just in case I needed the resuscitation the fireboys are trained in (and some of them are elderly and no doubt some are rightwingers too.) But they came when I needed them, and also when my son needed them. They came.

    So I wished them a happy Fourth with all my heart.

    And then behind them straggled (I’m at the T section of a very steep hill) little kids on bikes, woefully panting in the sunshine but bikes decorated with tiny flags, and up that steep hill they puffed (and I know well how steep that is.)

    So, I shouted encouragement, and wished them a happy Fourth.

    No mayors, no shiny cadillacs, and above all in this fire season no fireworks – just the fire and rescue folk and the kids.

    How perfect is that?

  2. i appreciate your appreciating them so warmly, juliania, but was there some reason that they’d reckoned you *might have needed* resuscitation? or was it…just a parade?

    if you haven’t, and can find the time, please do at least read wm. loyd garrison’s awesome poem. it speaks so clearly to our needs today. and happy fourth. mr. wd is at work, the slightly pyromanic firemen who will set off the fireworks set off the cannons at 5; glad i was up at 4, lol.

    but it does sound quite perfect at cochiti lake. thanks for telling of it.

    hot and dry dry dry here, too. 96 degrees all week. oh, i wish it would rain!

  3. In all the present aridity, how’d the vintage with the grapes of wrath get restored?

  4. did it? or do i miss your meaning again, bruce? surely we share a common language…somewhere along the line…. :)

  5. I wish I could send a bit of rain your way, along with the longest mosquito season in my memory (just kidding on the mosquitoes, I found a work-around). Great Lakes edging back toward normal levels. The garden hose is mostly unused but at the ready to rinse the root veggies when they are pulled. Radishes, soft, tender and super-sized. Saute’ in butter. So sweeeet! From a distance. Peace and Resolve

  6. Well, it might have happened ’round ’bout the time we tried to live this:

    but got this surreptitious right reaction. instead:

    Therefore, my first wood sail boat restoration became christened DETERIOROTTA.

  7. I built a Rushton canoe in ’76. Still have it and sail it when I have chance. Also, it is set up with oars. Restoration of old hulls, be my guest, drafted some offsets of old hulls for modern construction, but most beyond “restoration.” Tackling those projects is for the really brave souls.

  8. really, i believe nanci does it better than julie gold it’s an outstanding song; thank you. good to hear the lakes are filling. our western reservoirs are in horrid shape, and the western water wars are about to commence in earnest.

    some chinese and japanese dishes call for radishes, though sometimes white specifically. and yes they are yummy to the tummy. eep; i never planted any this year. forgot all about em.

    we just went outside to watch a few fireworks. one or two new ones, but crikey, mr. wd said they spent $7500 on the things. a light cloud cover (blessedly) holds the booms! and Ka-booms! and they make the house and menefee mountain quake.

  9. Sorry for not being clear. The fire crew came as well as ambulance when I fractured my hip. And as I posted before the albatross and kiwi videos, my son a few days back had used the ambulance service also. Today it was, indeed, a little parade.

    And yes, I have read the entire piece – was looking for my church rendition of the Babylon waters music – I think I found it, will post it next comment.

  10. ah, i’d forgotten ‘aridity’ in max’s piece.

    i love the alt version, lol. ‘the universe is laughing behind your back’ lololol.
    hooks! ‘whatever you conceive him to be’. oh, dear, i just pinged on my ‘pastafarian wars’ post (looks like they killed the spaghetti monster photo…might have to find a CC one to replace it.

    http://my.firedoglake.com/wendydavis/2011/07/23/pastafarian-tribulations-and-smokeys-divine-light/

  11. ah, past needs. and oopsie; sorry, i let answering comments get a bit beyond me for a bit. emails are backed up like train cars.

    i’m so glad you’re son survived such a fall. i’m 4 bed, so i’ll look forward to your church’s version in the morning,

    night, everyone. dream well and restore.

  12. We sing that psalm during Lent, and yes, to me it evokes everything the world does need today and has lost sight of – here’s our church version as we would sing it in the old style – lovely visuals as well:

  13. Hoo-hah! Sign me up for ALM’$ !! MEATBALLS and dogmatic melee’s, Indeed!!! And Desidero’s contribution … RIGHT Arm! A wonderful world, fer shur; if you’re not the pigeon:
    http://my.firedoglake.com/brasch/2014/07/03/pennsylvania-senate-committee-says-pigeon-shoots-are-animal-cruelty/
    But, waddabout the rest of US human people, majority PA Repugs?

  14. the architecture photos are splendid, indeed, ww. interestingly, one can seemingly see some of the twisted substructure of the onion domes in the first one. it would be fascinating to learn how they’re built (as in: with lath and chicken wire, then cement plaster, or something). the sleekness of the domes contrasted with the almost rococo embellishments yields some startling results. the choices of color mixes or not…is also noteworthy.

    hideous news from slovayansk this morning, and the propaganda is flying in crazy directions. now after some pushback, apparently, saker’s saying he doesn’t even trust what he posts, ay yi yi. i’d gone back to see if i could find a link wherein the russian FM or DF said russia couldn’t be drawn into defending parts of ukraine that were still…part of ukraine. (no vote otherwise, was what i assume he’d meant)

  15. ack, i just had a fairly serious contretemps with decider on his recent diary; should.not.have.engaged. but do tell me how brasch’s keep the squab aloft post relates? thickwit here.

  16. Smokey, the crackhead sez, “Wot’s for DINNER?”

    NOT Clay PIGEONS, AGAIN!

  17. crikey, not thickwit, but meathead! i just went over yonder to grab a new image of the tentacled one, read my characterization of smokey’s alley meal, and er…twigged. (sorry, can i claim it’s early?) nah, i dinnae think so. but isn’t that a touching video?

    ‘not clay pigeons again’ is very funny. as an aside, i really was surprised that a couple folks i thought my satire was anti-anything except religious-exclusivity wars. gads, around here, some of the churches have split four and five time over some small thing or other. hell, we now have an auxiliary catholic church on our gravel county road just up at the corner.

  18. Yes, Saker has been all around the barn, very much torn different ways on the intervention thing, and you can’t really blame him as it is terrible suffering in those small villages the army seems to prefer to obliterate. (Like the US only targeting weaker countries as well.) His latest theme is that Putin won’t move if the Russian people are against it – I would think they are like us here, seeing the catastrophes wrought by US interventions destroying countries, and sick to death of warmongering. And they would not want to see the ancient churches in Kiev being bombed if matters went from simmer to boil as the US has been determined to accomplish whilst corporate entities buy up all the the land and resources.

    Not a pretty picture. I was watching Putin’s latest speech to the Duma, happened to be my Fourth of July morning I realized. He knows the risks, even while speaking in muted tones.

    But fiery and inspirational words indeed from Frederick Douglas – my youngest son’s hero by the way. Quite a contrast.

  19. of course he’s conflicted, but it’s been noticeable to me that he’s essentially (if unconsciously) crowd-sourcing opinions about not only ‘putin’ intervening, but the veracity of reporting sources as well. thank goodness he finally decided to use ‘kremlin’ instead, here and there.

    and on this piece he seemed to react defensively to criticisms of sources, and turn a lot of it on its head. so i dunno. it’s as with that operationmindcrime fella at my.fdl. he will reflexively post anything he finds on facebook sites as fact, and kinda accepts any translations as just so. it makes me nervous, esp. as the level of barbarity in so many towns and mass killings would be, and likely have been only too verifiable.

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/for-record-strelkov-iazov-and-my.html

    i never did go back to try to find the quotes from the minister i’d mentioned, but his reasoning for *non-interference* was that novorussia is still part of ukraine, not having voted to secede, his reasoning must have meant. thus, any act by russia militariy would be seen as provocative as hell, and would be essentially empire building, which he said (iirc) russian people don’t seem to want.

    now i’m interested that the saker and some of his comrades seem to believe that ‘the people’s will’ is dangerous to thwart. i still believe that putin’s fellow oligarchs hold far more sway over his decisions, or actions/non-actions, anyway.

    muted tones from putin: do you reckon that’s right…or not? i’ve lost track about what’s going on with his talks with merkel, et.al., or at least what’s been deemed ‘fit for pubic consumption’. and i forget, did you say you can understand enough russian language to grasp a speech?

  20. Meat puts the pasta over the top, S’OK; but dunno, maybe your aux/caths are protesting the corporate delinquency of ‘their’ SCROTUS majority (wish they’d grow-up!). I’m inimical to fundamentalist imposition of Scalia Law, too; so I’m suggesting the fine ladies of this land (is OUR Land) consider a counter-imposition of practicing Lysistrata birth control until the MCPs relent!

  21. dunno what ‘aux/caths’ are. auxiliary catlicks? but lol on Lysistrata birth control actions:

    http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2011/11/04/no-thanks-lysistrata/

    ‘Secondly, I’m really uncomfortable with the implications of giving up sex in order to make a point. It seems to me that denying men access to women’s bodies in an effort to have them get on board with the right to privacy reinstantiates, or confirms, some sort of notion that it’s men who want sex and women who accede to those demands. It reconfirms the notion that women are not active sexual agents, that we are the receptors, not the instigators of sexual contact. And, quite frankly, that bothers me a lot.’

  22. michaelcavlan

    For the Fourth of July I attend a Native American Independence rally at the Minnesota state Capitol Building in St Paul. It was everything you would expect and more.

    Kinda related to the topic eh? I will give a report later. I just got off of a 13 hour shift at the hospital. I am tired.

    Talk soon

    Love-Respect-Solidarity

  23. we were talking about how first americans might spend the day over yonder, so ill be interested to hear. (de)Occupy! sleep well, that’s a long day, son.

  24. Auxiliary catholics. But Alshitey then; the spirit of Saul Alinsky sez, howzabout metrosexual flush-mobs conducting mass hobby lobby lavatory shit-ins worldwide, backing up to the $COTU$ johns’ chamber pots in Dashington, W.C.? uncleclarencethomas?? Anyone???

  25. okay, a winnah!!! i do remember year or two ago that the high-end prostitutes in one euro nation organized to not serve bankers who wouldn’t provide low-interested loans to small businesses (and maybe municipalities) suffering post 2008 meltdown. i grabbed this the other day and i forgot to add it. i haven’t watched yet, but hope to have time…soon.

  26. I do go to the Saker site to see what other people are saying, so I suppose the ‘crowd sourcing’ figures in there. I really don’t know enough about Russian politics, even less than the new crew in Ukraine, so it’s just as for here I say ‘Obama’ for the ptb whoever they are, in referring to Putin. He’s the spokesperson for policy, don’t know much more than that.

    Robert Parry did a good piece (commondreams on Sunday) to explain the difference between Crimea and the eastern group, in that Russia never invaded Crimea (in spite of the claims) since the troops were already stationed there. To actually shift them across borders into Ukraine proper would be a significant move, as would any ‘surreptitious’ support, as these things come back to bite you as far as world opinion goes, and the latter is very important to a barely emerging world player – have to remember how far down Russia went with our ‘help’.

    Now France is complaining about the fine on their bank – Yves downplays but it marks a pivotal moment perhaps. I think we’re fated, wendye, to live in very interesting times.

    And then there’s WIPP (:~b

  27. what i’d meant about ‘crowd-sourcing opinion’ was referring to the veracity of certain news outlets, facebook claims, videos, etc. i don’t think it’s as fuzzy as this author says about social news gathering, but i sure do think that both sides engage in propaganda polemics, and bias and bias. the ANNA site’s been almost hilarious in that regard.

    http://pando.com/2014/07/03/the-fog-of-twitter-ukraines-civil-war-and-the-limits-of-social-news-gathering/

    at the saker’s, now every commenter who questions putin’ motives is ‘a troll’, for instance, and i’d found the back and forth opinions rather educational, myself.

    i think you might mean parry’s piece at consortium news? if so, i was quite amazed to see folks say that they hadn’t seen any similar pieces, which seemed rather limited, even if one does have to hunt for it. ha; greg mitchell just parted ways with ‘the nation’, and not a few commenters said they should have ‘fired’ stephen cohen instead. not that i reckon he ‘works’ for them.

    but the saker himself seems to have finally found a comfort zone regarding his imagined thoughts on what putin will do when. oddly, none of them ever mention the putsch gov in kyiv militarily ‘taking crimea back’, so…i dunno how seriously to take their armchair quarterbacking.

    i watch #euoromaidan PR, geoffrey pyatt’s, NATO’s and other US vassal state twitter feeds, and the fucking evil kyiv post (banderists) stuff is retweeted quite a lot. depressing. but then watching all that’s not going on at ‘the intercept’ is rather depressing as well. so it goes, i guess.

    which is the ‘new world player’ of which you speak? you’ve lost me there. and on the muskovitch tomato plant: are the others gone to some bad end? our garden’s growing rather slowly; high daytime temps, but it’s just starting to warm up at night.

    but joe biden had a twitter pic and message that will slay you:

    some more equal than others, as they say. and loads of photos from that wunneful expensive party kyiv threw for US ‘independence day’ on pyatt’s account. crikey.

  28. shoot, i’ve been stuck choosing among three different diaries, but i swear just posting a dozen or so tweets from euromaidan would be quite informative. the wwII anti-japanese illustrations had nothin’ on this:

  29. Now US’ soldiery figuratively sports (and surely, apropos) the freedom-oppressing Red Coats! But no lack of imagination exists among baby:
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/07/1312330/-16-yo-kid-has-just-changed-the-game
    nor boomer:
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/07/1312228/-I-am-now-a-corporation
    in OUR present rejection of tyrannical repression.

  30. cool green app, even though it doesn’t tell the whole story. i’m being bombarded with ‘issue ads’, as well. funny, cuz there’s not much need to hide behind ‘soft money’ any longer, is there? except direct to the coffers vote buying, lol.

    hope the guy who incorporated did it as an LLC, yes? :)

  31. Literal vote-buying, indeed:
    http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2014/07/mississippis-thad-cochran-and-campaign-manager-staffer-busted-in-illegal-vote-buying-operation-2874168.html
    & Limited Liability Corporation = LLC; but $ does NOT = freedumb/’speech’/”etc.” ! I’ll have to think about ~ $200 being worth it; since I simply do Not ACCEPT deprivation of my unalienable and Constitutional rights.

  32. lololol: there still *illegal* ways to buy votes! who knew? and the good reverend only blew the whistle on accountta they stiffed him! moar lololol!

    ‘hundreds of thousands’ did he say? beautiful; ah me.

    really dunno how the llc would fit for sure, but in general, that’s why folks incorporate in the first place. and it sure used to cost a hell of a lot more that $200, and at least in CO you were required to name a board, etc., so i dunno what this stuff’s about. the author must, and maybe answered questions in the comments. orange and white are too hard for my eyes, even at naked capitalism…for very long.

  33. Sorry, wendye, often my attempts at brevity are unintelligible. Here’s the Parry piece I recommended:

    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/07/06-3

    Bravo to you for navigating the Intercept – I’ve given up. Yes, somewhere in the comments discussion at Saker the taking back of Crimea has been discussed – it wouldn’t be easy because of the terrain, but indeed it was noted that would probably be a ‘last straw’ for Putin. I sure hope it doesn’t come to that.

    Parts I find helpful are discussions of such practical matters as terrain, impact on civilians – information about an area and people I know little about. Various comments with historical anecdotes, personal observations are worth it to me.

    I don’t think contrary opinions are rejected there so long as they are politely expressed, but I would agree that Saker himself is yearning for Putin to jump into the fray – many comments counsel against that so I think it is a back and forth on the issue.

    ’emerging world player’ simply meant Russia itself, which did have to play second fiddle to the US after the breakup of the Soviet Union, when the Yeltsin period took them down the garden path with US assistance. That look you see in Putin’s eyes I interpret as defensive since I think he knows his country’s not back to full strength, and this one has pretty much run the table on aggressive behavior, so he’s right to be cautious, even quite nervous about the outcome for Russia.

    Bottom line, I really don’t want to see yet another country plunged into chaos by our ‘leaders’. Bad enough they are doing it to Ukraine. Terrible they are doing it to Ukraine!

  34. yes, that’s the same piece that was billed as an exclusive © 2014 Consortium News. ha; you should take it to Desider at about comment 37 on fairleft’s piece on gaza/israel. he and i have been exchanging…’views’ on ukraine lately on the boards. (old blogging friend from back in the tpm days, efriend, sometimes frenemy.) :)

    isn’t it startling to know how many can buy the empire’s version of ‘the crisis in ukraine’ so easily?

    i see now: russia; i hadn’t thought of them as ’emerging’, but i guess i catch your drift given your thinking. good they’ve discussed crimea as a possible redline for putin; i hadn’t seen if for quite sometime, but: i did discover that if ya just click ‘comments’ ya get a separate page. they are all shunted to the left side, but even with that, they are more discernible as to who said what… no, srsly, there was a whole conversation the sake started about anti-putin rhetoric and trolling.

    but as to his eyes, i’m still remembering the past twenty years of photos of them is all. but ‘nervous’ is interesting as a take on the present informing a possible future for The Bear. is he hunting for a new détente again? mike whitney, of course, is seeing only oil, gas, and pipelines, and yes, they are big factors, but NATO is as well, yes?
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/09/pushing-ukraine-to-the-brink/

    gg and muzzain have a new piece up at the the intercept, but it’s way to humongous to read, and it isn’t likely that it’s ‘the finale’. my chich is that nine months later, so many of the journalists have yet to publish anything there. reminds me of getting paid by the federal gov for *not planting* crops. :) anyway, i’d better get back to working on this…thing.

  35. Over There … OVER THERE … tra la la …
    ~ 0600 fairleft post on USraeli war: ~ 60 responses
    ~ 1100 Cox post on new American revolution desideratum: cricketzzzz …
    Not a single enlistment, much less draftee; even typical OT censorship can’t explain! What? Is ALL US Left behinds? (And its not even caturday!)

  36. “1100 Cox post on new American revolution desidertaum”? qué?

    no comprende, señor. (once again)

  37. ah, i see, except for the ‘1100’, i guess. fairleft’s has ever more comments, but given that the onslaught is expanding, small wonder, eh? i still don’t see why the palestinians would fire rockets. but: i should not have been shocked that on msn’s home page this morning was this question:

    where does hamas get their rockets?

  38. 1100 = 11 AM (military time). & Hamas/”Israeli” missiles – are from US! (watch the ‘truthdug’ propaganda film and see if there’s anything obvious, except aerial ‘fireworks’ of *some kind?) ! *They’re simply half-baked USrael Patriot missiles, notoriously unreliable “defense” placebos (95% ineffective, like ‘iron dome’ military helmets)! Equally lame propaganda is the wedding deception with “something” exploding overhead; then switching to an actual Pentagon-advertisement patriot launch, exploding nothing provable! How about some 6 o’clock news “Collateral Murder”- type films of US-droned Muslim wedding parties from Iraq to Yemen to Afghanistan! C’mon BarBarack Insane ObamAssassin! Show ’em; if ya got ’em!

  39. Fergot the halfascist link (see above)

  40. oh, my. thanks. i’ll have to watch later, perhaps on a break. i got kinda beat up yesterday trying to free a fawn who’d been freaked by a big bull, and had leapt partway through a wooden garden gate in its panic…and got stuck. mama doe on one side of the fence, wooly bully on the other; quite fraught.

    anyhoo, i ended up losing a day of writing, and i’d really like to see if i might not be able to finish this post. laters, as they say. :)

  41. I was grocerying so lost a day also – boy, it is hard to catch up on all the reading – I’m glad you found the comments page. I figure I really know Saker’s sensitivities by now and have made my positions known on a few posts there – just did so on the long comments list yours is at the top of- would pertain to your question as to whether Putin is after detente. I think he’s after a real change in the world order, a federalization of sorts – multi-polar detente if you like. Has a shot if he can get Europe on board.

    So, I sort of breeze through Saker’s reactions, don’t do much reading of any military descriptions – the main acts of violence for me were Odessa and Mariupol; those birthed horror on all sides. I agree with mafr’s objection to broad categories of hate, and I agree with you it’s good to test theories against opposing ones – get that in the comments, though often I can ‘read’ from the opening phrase whether it’s worthwhile.

    My Natasha, yes, sadly the sole survivor – you were correct, it was too early to start when I did so, so casualties were rife – however, she’s a healthy big ‘un sitting by my front door in a big container and I will save lots of seed from her, so thanks mightily! I’m gradually building good seed stocks on a variety of heirlooms. We’ve had rains at last, hope you have some soon!

  42. good you offer some opinion there. i was floored by the FP magazine piece, but…that’s what the media know and tell the public, as with gaza. yes, plenny-hate to go around, and i do try to appreciate the diference between ‘anti-zionist’ and anti-jew’ but for some…we might sense that they overlap, even if unwittingly.

    ‘natasha’: one kewl thing about growing only a few of one sort of plant is naming them (in this case: her). :)

    we’re only growing three heirloom tomatoes, can’t remember why we settled on that number. but oh, i wish i could teleport some of my italian basils to you. i started double in case the fist half i set outside froze, and i must have 40 dears out there by now. and not a few containers of pesto mr. wd found at the bottom of the freezer when he defrosted it recently. prolly i’ll just blanche the basil, freeze it for later use. x vigin olive oil is pricey, pinons: for get it. toasted walnuts are pricey as well.

    havin’ a hella time with seed germination this year, and the magpies…O, the magpies, are the bane of thi year’s garden. might write bout those brilliant peckerwoods one day soon. too clever for MY own good they do be.

    oh, and i never knew my comment the saker’s ever got thru the Captcha.

  43. Yes, your comment got through indeed, but my computer did crazy stuff when I went to the link, so it was no go for me (most videos same thing, must be my refusal to upgrade.)

    I couldn’t germinate much chile seed I’d saved carefully, all heirlooms – don’t know if it has been mouse fodder but only one Chinese variety (I think) has survived and not the lovely South American deep red one that is SO delicious. (I will keep trying.) I finally bought some different ones from the nicotinoid-damned-if-you-do folk, the only ones accessible to me this year. Sorry, soil.

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