Stephen Cohen: Downed Malaysian Plane Raises Risk of War Between Russia and the West

I’ll just post this all-too-brief interview, then come back to fill in a few things later in the day.  Meanwhile, add at will.  Come to think of it, I’ll stick a few links in raw, as well.

Dr. Cohen’s question about how in hell’s name downing the passenger plane could have helped Putin or Russia, of course, is really one of the key questions.  Pepe Escobar asks  who benefits in his piece below, and mentions among other scenarios, that electing the Chocolate King hadn’t pleased Yulia Tymenshnko one iota (she of the ‘exterminate all the Novorussians’ fame) and it’s conceivable that it was a rogue Ukrainian military action.

Pepe Escobar was correct: the SBU spirited away the recordings:
Valentina Lisitsa @ValLisitsa   “BBC reports Ukraine’s SBU confiscated the recordings of communications between Ukr. air control and .
These are from Geoffrey Pyatt’s twitter machine, proving by way of iron-clad innuendo, that the downing of MH 17 was all down to Putin/Hiler.

uacrisis
‏@uacrisis US Secretary @JohnKerry:  “there is overwhelming evidence of #Russian complicity in the downing #MalaysiaAirlines plane in #Ukraine @BBCWorld”

From Pepe Escobar, who offers some counterfactuals to the MSM propaganda/narrative, and brings in some admitted rumors later:

A simple search at reveals that MH17 was in fact diverted 200 kilometers north from the usual flight path taken by Malaysia Airlines in the previous days – and plunged right in the middle of a war zone. Why? What sort of communication MH17 received from Kiev air control tower?

Kiev has been mute about it. Yet the answer would be simple, had Kiev released the Air Traffic Control recording of the tower talking to flight MH17; Malaysia did it after flight MH370 disappeared forever.

It won’t happen; SBU security confiscated it. So much for getting an undoctored explanation on why MH17 was off its path, and what the pilots saw and said before the explosion.

The Russian Defense Ministry, for its part, has confirmed that a Kiev-controlled Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational near the MH17’s crash. Kiev has deployed several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers; these are all perfectly capable of bringing down jets flying at 33,000 ft.

Radiation from a battery’s Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30km south of Donetsk) was detected by the Russian military. According to the ministry, the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery which was at a firing distance from MH17’s flight path. The tracking radar range on the Buk system is a maximum of 50 miles. MH17 was flying at 500 mph. So assuming the “rebels” had an operational Buk and did it, they would have had not more than five minutes to scan all the skies above, all possible altitudes, and then lock on. By then they would have known that a cargo plane could not possibly be flying that high. For evidence supporting the possibility of a false flag, check here.”

He and others are mystified that alleged Spanish air traffic controller ‘Carlos’ was tweeting some incendiary things before his twitter account was closed, and he and the other ‘foreign’ controllers were dismissed; no one knows where Carlos is, or if he existed, really.
His tweets were compiled here.

From woody box’s thread at My.fdl,:  “…the Russians have just published radar data on a press conference and claim that an unknown plane, presumably an Ukrainian fighter jet, was in the vicinity of MH-17 some minutes before and after the crash. Their data are pretty detailed.

Juliania brought this piece by Robert Parry on t’other thread, and this from RT (in part)

““The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.
Follow Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine LIVE UPDATES
“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.
“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.
“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”
The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.
At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine, according to Russia’s Defense Ministry. It urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it.”

(I could have sworn that it had said earlier “may have detected…”  I’m sorry this is so scrambled up; I’d forgotten that WordPress deleted their ‘Paste from Word’ button, so none of the style tags and hyperlinks come in, ack.  I should have used Chrome, and will try to remember in the future.)

Ah; and I don’t know who these folks are, but the information seems probative as hell:

HumanRights Investigations.org, ‘evidence-based, independent and rigorous investigation of human rights abuse’:  “The MH17 investigation and Buk 312” , an articlechallenging the idea that the separatists had that particular military hardware,  then showing a video that the one in question was in a Ukrainian military convoy.  I have no idea; finding the truth in any of this would be very hard, if not impossible.  But straight out of the gate, I know I don’t believe the Empire’s version nor that of their puppets in Kyiv.

Oh, dear, oh dear, oh horrors. From the same Human rights investigations folks, ‘Lugansk War Crime‘:

“The air strike on the regional civil administration building in Lugansk by the armed forces of Kiev on June 2nd is a terrible tragedy for the civilians killed. Whilst the action has been described by the Ukrainian government as part of an “anti-terrorist operation,” it clearly violates the basic principles on the use of force governing law enforcement operations. Given the presence of armed conflict in Eastern Ukraine, the action violates international humanitarian law.
According to the OSCE monitors report:
“In Luhansk the situation remained volatile. On 2 June, shortly after 15:00 hrs, rockets hit the occupied regional administration building. Based on the SMM’s limited observation these strikes were the result of non-guided rockets shot from an aircraft. The number of casualties is unknown.”

Warning, heart-tearing and enraging video, as have been so many others, but confirmed, I’d say.  This site’s a keeper.

40 responses to “Stephen Cohen: Downed Malaysian Plane Raises Risk of War Between Russia and the West

  1. if you can stand to watch, obomba just finished making ‘statements’ on gaza and ukraine. i haven’t watched yet, but it will be open to plenty of satire, i’d imagine, after reading his and kerry’s tweets.

  2. The truth is not in DEMiserepubilkan 0bomba, et al.
    We know who precipitated Nukraine and the Gaza ghetto; and why:
    U卐rael Uber ALLES. Sie Haben SCHULD!
    – the knights Who Say, NE (No Empire)!

  3. NE, NE!

    Thanks Bruce and wendye,

    In from the mid-day heat, I’ll maybe listen to POTUS comments after a couple glasses of wine later tonight. Town meeting this evening first with some comments and questions to get on the record with.

    So we are getting various possible confirmations about f-flags that is of no surprise to anyone with the where-with-all and concern to attempt to ferret the truth, skepticism based on so many past performances of teh leadership.

    Good news, work to relocate raspberries last year is paying dividends this year.

  4. i’ll be back; i spent more time than i’d intended to fleshing out some of this. gotta get to the garden, shape the loaves, do some dinner prep.

  5. michaelcavlan

    WendyeI am going to create a news story about the entire Ukraine situation. It will hopefully be allowed to be published in the media that i am sending it to. If and when it does i will send you folks a link.

    The evidence of nefarious events by the Neo-Nazi’s in Kiev with the full support of the US State Dept is getting deeper and murkier.

    The flat out censorship in corporate and “progressive’ media is even more worrisome and disturbing.

  6. ack, yes, bruce: no to Empire (this or any others), and lies are lies, even from The Savior’s lips.

    hope your meetings went well, nonquixote. the heat and drought here are almost too much to bear (esp. for mr. wd). over the past five months, perhaps, we’ve gotten 3/100ths of an inch of precipitation. without the acequias and bureau of rec dammed lake water, we’d be up shit crick, and so on. a blessing that we don’t have a plague of grasshoppers so far.

  7. good, michael cavlan; i hope that your chosen venue will publish it, and look forward to the link

    for now: ‘‘Pro-Russia separatists hand over MH17 black boxes’
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/mh17-disaster-ukraine-obama-live-updates
    and a twitter pic from the ever-odious chris miller, kyiv post.

    good on them, and if russia finds out through their analyses that the separatists shot down the plane in mistake, he must say the truth to have any credibility in the future.

  8. sleep well and restore. dream of peace, perhaps. i dream of war all too often.

  9. Hello wendye et al, (yes, I’m still up at midnight, very hot here, so here I be.) Thank you wendye for being on this subject, which has my hair on fire – I just messaged my two nephews and middle son two links to put them in the picture – one very important one is at rt.com and is down in their news section now but was riveting when it first got put up – the surveillance photos from the Russian military. The later version is much easier to understand than it first was, and it deals with the positioning of the Ukraine missile launchers on the days before and the day of the crash, then their rapid removal. Also, the increased Ukraine radar activity on that day, subsiding thereafter – I will get that link for you, but first here is an excellent description of the Maidan coup government by an Ukrainian reporter who fled to Russia – puts you in the picture of what sort of a government that is.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/21/amnesty-international-and-the-war-in-ukraine/

    Off I go to get the rt.com one.

  10. Here’s rt.com:

    http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/

    I’m glad I had to wait to give this to you – they did a much better job of explaining what is what in this revised version, plus they have an excellent refutation of the Ukrainian claim that the separatists were trying to hide their missile launcher by sending it ‘back to Russia.’

    As I posted on who-knows-which thread over at fdl, this so reminds me, this presentation, of Adlai Stevenson’s famous presentation demonstrating the Russians had missiles in Cuba. Also, I hadn’t been clear on why they were telling us about the fighter jet that was shadowing the airliner – in this version it becomes clear that they saw it hover over the crash site. And the Ukrainians claimed that there were no military planes in the air at that time.

    Back two days ago, nakedcapitalism had a post by Lambert asking two questions – cui bono (who benefits?) and going back to the Downing Street memos which concluded that the facts were being twisted to suit the policy – US in this case in a nutshell. No question, for me. I don’t do tweets, so it’s very good you are on that part of it.

    Now it is in the UN, and I hope beyond hope the truth will come out. My kids and nephew’s generation depends on it. And by the way, both the Dutch and the Malaysians have praised the separatists handling of the site and the bodies. (Remember Hans Blix? We need to listen this time!)

  11. more accurately, the UN resolved to have the incident fully investigated, an it may be the dutch who take the lead. russia believes that the team should b broadened more widely (the guardian).

    yes, who benefits, profits is the one to ask, as i said several times in the rather convoluted post above. dave lindorff asks it again here.

    http://thiscantbehappening.net/print/2380

    i read your links, though the rt maps were hard for me to see, thus make sense of, although the narrative helped. the journalist’s piece at counterpunch i also read, and agreed with, though i didn’t spend the time to read and watch his many links and videos.

    favor though? if you can just bring the link you post at diaries, rather than the links to those diaries, it would make life simpler for me. :)

  12. Goebbling C.I.A.! We simply accuse and blame our victims for that we are actually doing to them.
    http://rinf.com/alt-news/latest-news/obama-goes-nazi-races-presidencys-finish-line/

  13. indeed, full-tilt projection as psyops. yes. and look how well it works so often. zuesse’s piece is too long to do more than scan, at least for now, but i did grab couple links i’d been trying to find. thank you. that he thinks only those who signed the first letter have the right to run for prez…well, dunno most of the names, but those i did…eep. purist am i.

    but the profiteers are indeed busier than i’d known, and i thought i knew a lot, lol. choked for time again today, so please! talk to each other when you can/need/want, etc.

    lost a dmitri orlov link somewhere, but stir these into the ‘democratic ukraine mix’

  14. So sorry for not being accurate, whatever that means!

    “favor though? if you can just bring the link you post at diaries, rather than the links to those diaries, it would make life simpler for me. :)”

    That’s what I did, isn’t it? Sorry – back to my garden in earnest now. Life’s too short.

  15. it seemed that you were saying the UN would be investigating, not just (quote): ‘The UN Security Council adopted a resolution demanding access to the crash site and an independent investigation, as well as a ceasefire around the area. was all. it’s the dutch. and obomba just announced that US intel would be announced soon. remember US intel a la colin power? aluminum tubes? same dude is mouthing off at the new york times, apparently. or was that in one of your links? gads, i’m spinning out…so bloody hot, so bloody dry…

    oh, no you gave metamars’ link, i chased them down. it’s just happened before, so i thought id mention it, was all. yes, cuz the hours blow by, how well i know…

  16. marie harf, state department flack (deleted the link, as it didn’t embed). from washingtonsblog,

    We’re the good guys who tell the truth, and Russians are liars’,

    Forget Iraq … that’s ancient history. Just trust us.

  17. As usual, epiphany often occurs at late, Late NIGHT w/wo Morpheus. Al, the kiddies pal, enlightens again:

    It epitomizes the hilarious Army Engineers’ “mission statement”, its utterly opaque ‘Corps-path’ which I gratefully abandoned after a year of W.T.F.? ; upon relief of bless-ed retirement! By contrast, Yankovich’s iteration makes abundantly apparent $EN$E. $imply, follow The MONEY!

  18. lol; thank you. someone had put it on the fdl front-page, and i wouldn’t have watched had you not brung it. all the buzzwords, then ‘oooooooooh’. i love weird al, but our son is crazy for him!

    damn, though, i wanted to write up a satire piece on the ‘u.s. intel on flight mh 17 announcement’ (so many gems in it), but i have sooo many things to do today, plus a dinner guest from the belly of the beast.

    i can only try to imagine how fun you find this song and graphics, bruce. keep watchin’ the one-handed clock!

  19. Dinner? Beast? Possum belly?

    Bon apetit!

  20. michaelcavlan

  21. michaelcavlan

    RT is literally the only mainstream media that is even remotely credible on this now. Seriously.

  22. guess that one’s a spin off of devo’s ‘whip it’? but gack….

  23. gotta wait a bit for the video (silly hegg-ache on the way). but suh synchronicity: i’d just seen that piece at rt, but hadn’t taken the time to chek into the washington times. of course, it’s all based on ‘jamming rebel terrorists’ buc radar’. some conflict on whether they have it, ever had it, and if they *did* shoot down two more planes near the mh17 site. i srsly don’t know, but this guy says yes. is he for real?

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/mh17-ukraine-separatists-buk-missile-system

    we do remember that even if rt is *more credible* than msn news bureaus, they still put out their own brand of propaganda, eh?

  24. No, like MJ with the ‘gangstas’; it’s time for US ALL to tell our corporate delinquents, To BEAT IT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjgnHXzvogg !

  25. michaelcavlan

    Jesus

    I am at a loss Wendye

    The media source, an on line mdi a site for “citizen journalists” the Twin Cities daily planet have refused to run the article. they called my claims “dangerous” and that I had no evidence. the article and video clips attached were filled with actual evidence.

    I am now seriously stunned at the Orwellian nature of American society and the willingness of some to censor dissenting voices.

    I am at a loss. Oh and of COURSE RT is propaganda. i get that. it still is true that they are far more credible than any of the corporate media here in the US.

  26. michaelcavlan

    Wendye dear

    can you post the story here? I will post it in next comment OK?

  27. michaelcavlan

    It is with a sense of horror and disbelief that I have watched events unfold in Ukraine. Not just at the actions of the Ukrainian government in Kiev as they attacked their own people. In fact my greatest concern has been on the concern or lack thereof in this country. This apathy about the Ukraine situation is aided by the stunning silence by the corporate media and indeed ‘progressive” or “liberty” media and groups on the facts surrounding the Ukraine and the United States shameful complicity it.

    So here are the facts that the above mentioned media and groups refuse to acknowledge or report on. As horrifying as these facts are, they are in fact very easily verifiable. This condemnation of the corporate media and others extends from CNN to FOX Noise (a station dressed up as a news station) to MSNBC, Al Jazeera America, NPR and even the vast majority of “progressive” news outlets as well as “liberty” news outlets and groups. There are a few noble exceptions but they are the exception and not the rule.

    The US State Department are openly aiding Neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine as they overthrew the legally elected government of Ukraine. When we talk of Neo Nazi’s we are not talking an infantile political swear word like “Michelle Bachmann is a Nazi.” No we are talking about real, honest to God, “Kill all the Jews and other sub humans” Throwing Seig Heil Nazi salutes kind of extreme right wing nationalists in Ukraine. These people are actually using this kind of rhetoric.

    The two main groups involved and receiving US State Department assistance is the Right Sector and the extreme Nationalist Svoboda Party. These two extremist groups are very active in the Kiev government and the current government are unelected. They overthrew the legally elected government in a violent coup.

    Now these extremists are running rampant on the streets of Kiev, burning bookstores and newspapers, beating any perceived ‘political opponents” with the full blessings of the current administration in Kiev. Those that are not in Kiev have joined up with the Ukrainian National Guard and are targeting civilian neighborhoods in eastern Ukraine. This is so reminiscent of Germany in the early 1930’s that it is frightening.

    One of the main funding groups that has aided the US State Department in helping these thugs is the National Endowment For Democracy. Which is funded primarily by George Soros. Soros is of course a major contributor to president Barack Obama and the Democratic Party.

    Which explains the lack of concern amongst the majority of the “left” in this country. It would appear that it is not just the Koch Brothers that are subverting democracy and aiding extremist right wingers. Which many Democratic Party talking heads would like to claim when they read from Dem party talking points.

    Of course many Americans cannot be blamed for this. So many simply do not know about this horrifying reality of our own government supporting Neo-Nazis in Ukraine. The corporate media and their “progressive” and “liberty” allies are trying to keep you all uninformed and in the dark.

    In fact on a very personal level I will share this with you. In recent months a north-east Minneapolis man was being accused of being a Neo-Nazi during World War II. He was accused of being active in the Waffen SS, which was a notorious Nazi Death Squad group. He was originally from Ukraine. I wrote a letter to the Minneapolis Star Tribune. I pointed out this fact and tied it to current US State Department policy in Ukraine today. Needless to say the letter was not published. Just like the other 50 odd letters and 8 Op Ed pieces I submitted to the Star Tribune. I am a fairly intelligent and well informed member of the Minnesota community and can write a well crafted letter. Short, succinct and to the point. It would appear that being well informed on world events is the very last thing that the Star Tribune wants published in it’s pages.

    It is with a sense of horror, shame and disgust that I report these facts to you. It is time that we build a real, viable alternative to the corporate media and their friends in the current corporate corrupted political system that we live under.

    Start by remembering that the corporate media are not a trustworthy source of news and information. That CNN-MSNBC-FOX Noise-Al Jazeera America-NPR-Star Tribune etc etc are not to be trusted on their reporting. That is the case wether we talk of the Ukraine, Gaza, Detroit or indeed Minneapolis.

    Then we need to build an alternative so that the people of this country can become informed. Instead of entertained and misdirected as the corporate media would like you to be.

  28. i will, michael cavlan. but for now, i’m working on some tasks for mr. wd and is family, plus a couple personal must-do’s. wanna choose a title?

  29. hi, how’s it going, thought you would like this one:

    https://news.vice.com/article/a-canadian-resistance-community-evicted-a-fracked-gas-pipeline-crew-from-its-territories

    hope you get some precipitation soon.

  30. inspirational, mafr; i love it, although toward the end i found that i could only scan, given that my my time is so limited. i hope to come back and read more attentively. the author is to be highly commended for his engaging historical contexts, quotes, photos, and backgrounds in bringing ‘the Unist’ot’en way’, and more. ‘thousands of years’; yes. i loved the helicopter pilots’ new realizations/educations, too.

    ah, we had 18 hundredths of an inch of rain three days ago. guess i hope that means the clouds might know our address now… without the bureau of rec’s lake, we’d be in dire straits. but plans are afoot to tweak the colorado river compact so that lakes using dammed water for hydro-electricity can keep up with that, yada, yada. i reckon there will be moves afoot similar to eminent domain to change…everything. so many demands on water now, and bidness…takes center stage in the courts, no?

    one day at at time is advisable in so many situations now for so many of us, eh? mr. wd miraculously still has a job, our daughter and her chirren are coming for a week, and so much of life is good. good flowers growing, enough to eat, lovely place to live in a snug home-built house. not to mention remembering to give thanks, and believing that winging life on a prayer (if atheistic) through love and sharing, has its own rewards, if we can just stop and…notice life. love to you, and lovely to see you.

    wd

  31. oof. i’d ment to tell you that i have been slowly working on the photos for a photo-journal essay about the re-greening of menefee mountain here. unfortunately, i can’t get out to the mountain to record or identify what new growth if going on, nor the possible growth of new species whose seeds require fire to sprout.

    i lost thousands of photos when my laptop crashed, but i did locate some from the time of the fire and before, and have been taking shots of the slow greening, plus the new landscape created by way of new erosions and rocks tumbling down when it did rain last year. fancy that even now, our irrigation water headgate clogs with ash and bits of coal…still. wildfire: such a mighty force, so necessary, but so hard to live with. hope you are well, too, dear mafr/mark.

  32. I agree, that article was very well researched and written… vice has some very good reporting. Sure is a beautiful part of the world.

    well, I look forward to seeing your photos about the mountain.

  33. so many different articles are posted at vice that i’d wondered if it’s just an aggregator site or what. but it was excellent, and i do hope to read it more carefully later, but whooosh, time runs so fast lately.

    i wish i had ever gotten to that part of the world, that’s for certain. yes, mountain soon as i can. i do want to pull a zillion links re: ukraine into a post or two. gaza is taking up everything now, and the novorussian civilians dying (in perhaps close to equal numbers) from ukraine military and ‘militias’ are quite ignored.

  34. oh, and these are flowers, not the mountain, but i recently added a number of pictures so mr. wd’s relatives might enjoy them while they could operate his fathers laptop for him…and see them. no one here looked at my bird slideshow, so i may not post these here when i do at my.fdl later on when a lot of the garden blooms sooner or later. :)

  35. Nukraine: Niall nailzit –
    http://www.sott.net/article/282575-Asymmetric-Warfare-MH17-False-Flag-Terror-and-the-War-on-Gaza
    and big picture Stanton zoom-out:
    http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/john-stanton/57152/the-five-fingers-of-death-baghdadi-obama-netanyahu-porashenko-and-abe
    But thanks for the additional bloomshot diversions to go with the bird portraits (I enjoyed them all, as well as the two horned lovebirds somehow included therein).

  36. Three days in the garden getting bleached to the bone, and lots to catch up on here – computer is misbehaving in the heat, so apologies – I tried a couple of times and it froze. Thanks to you and Michael for keeping up on this – I just managed to post a brief comment at fdl on their one thread on the topic, so here’s hoping this goes forward – fingers crossed!

  37. Thanks, markf – those pit houses sound wonderful.

    “…The camp hosts an extensive permaculture garden that produces hundreds of pounds of organic food and uses a unique solar powered irrigation system. Large food stores of traditional meats like salmon and bear are collected and preserved. Daily upkeep involves chopping firewood, security patrols, and undertaking construction projects to facilitate the camp’s growth. Unist’ot’en intends to teach alternative lifeways to those who are interested…”

    [Fan on ice – simple and effective!]

  38. I wasn’t going to comment again, but thanks, Bruce, for that sott.net article! Wow, is it loaded – I’m only halfway through, have learned so much so far.

    Ignorant, ignorant me. Well done, sott.net.

  39. wd thanks for the photos very nice, and you are welcome juliannia…

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