Killer Kop Kleinert Pre-Trial Hearing Started this Week in Austin

For the first time in at least a decade, a Killer Kop was indicted in Austin for the extrajudicial murder of a person of color. Okay, the charge is actually manslaughter, but still, it’s a Good Thing, considering that so few cops are ever charged, indicted, or found guilty if they almost miraculously had been. Pre-trial motions are underway, but you’d scarcely know it by the lack of coverage.

The grand jury indicted Charles Kleinert on May 12, ruling: “… that Kleinert:

“did then and there recklessly cause the death of Larry Jackson by striking and by attempting to strike Larry Jackson with the defendant’s hand while holding a loaded firearm. The indictment also said that Kleinert created a “substantial and unjustifiable risk” in his attempt to seize Jackson while holding a loaded firearm.”

Manslaughter is a second degree felony. If found guilty, Kleinert faces prison time of 2-20 years and a fine not to exceed $10,000. More on that strangely worded indictment later.

On July 26, police were investigating a robbery at the Benchmark Bank during business hours. When Larry Eugene Jackson, Jr. tried to enter the bank, he discovered the doors were locked. Dicktective Kleinert, smelling a rat, fled after the pre-suspect, but falling behind, he commandeered a citizen’s car in the process. Under a nearby bridge, Jackson and Kleinert struggled, and according to, Kleinert:

‘pursued Jackson and beat him, breaking his ribs and perforating his colon. He then placed his gun to the back of Larry’s neck and pulled the trigger.

Larry was supposed to return home that day in order to take his three visiting children back to their mother in Mississippi. Instead, Larry’s mother Billie Mercer filed a missing person’s report with the Austin Police Department. Despite the police knowing full well that they had killed her son, they made her wait over a day before informing her, so they could get their stories straight and come up with a narrative to frame Larry as a criminal.’


by Anthony Freda

‘Jackson, who was not suspected in the robbery, walked away but returned a minute later and tried to open the door again, drawing the attention of a bank manager. After speaking to Jackson, police have said the manager told Kleinert that Jackson had attempted to use the name of a bank customer employees knew wasn’t Jackson. Sources have told the American-Statesman that Jackson had the identification of at least one person that didn’t belong to him, and police have said that Jackson had possibly gone there to pass a forged check.’

Kleinert turned himself in to the police the day of his indictment, where his bail was set at $100,000; he paid his own bond.

Soon after ‘the shooting’, Kleinert had quit the department, thereby insuring that his employment records would be sealed, and no action could be taken by the Austin police review board, and enabling him to ‘retire’ with full pension compensation. The American-Statesman did say that nothing they’d found in their records search found anything but glowing reports of Kleinert’s police work.

Now we don’t know what evidence the grand jury heard, including Kleinert’s, but in another piece from the Statesman:

‘Sources have told the Statesman that Kleinert told internal affairs investigators that he unintentionally fired the shot that killed Jackson. His weapon was drawn as part of his effort to subdue Jackson, according to sources, and Kleinert said a single round accidentally went off when he lost his balance and fell over.’

Quite a different story; it’s called testilying, of course, but IA and grand jury testimony is secret secret secret stuff.

By fall of 2013, Larry Jackson’s family had filed a wrongful death claim in federal court. From AUSTIN (KXAN):

‘The Austin city council voted and approved a $1.25 million settlement with the family of a man who was shot and killed by Austin Police officer in July 2013.

This particular settlement is for Jackson’s three children. There is still a pending lawsuit filed by Jackson’s parents.

“We believe a monitory (sic) settlement for these young children who have lost their father through no fault of their own is the best path forward,” said Mayor Pro Tem Sheryl Cole before city council voted 6-to-1 to settle the lawsuit. Mayor Lee Leffingwell voted against it.

Good; not that money brings their father back to the life of which he and they were so callously deprived.

Now what might have caused the Austin DA to take this Killer Kop’s case to the grand jury? Perhaps community pressure, but perhaps this bit of history via the Socialist Worker was part of it, saying that:

Until Kleinert, not a single officer had been indicted for killing an unarmed person of color in over a decade in Austin–including for the death of 20-year-old Byron Carter, who was killed while sitting in a car, and for the death of 18-year-old Nathaniel Sanders, who was shot and killed while sleeping in a car.’

Following that the journalist told the story of District Attorney Rosemary Lehmberg having been arrested for drinking and driving in April, 2013, and that afterward, APD Chief Acevedo and other political forces seemed to distance themselves from poor Rosemary. Although asked to resign by a few of those APA ‘forces’, she refused, and perhaps bringing Kleinert for indictment was a bit of a raspberry toward law enforcement, or perhaps she wanted just to end her career in someone’s good graces. We won’t likely ever know.

But rest assured that Austin’s citizens are in good hands:

‘Mayor Lee Leffingwell cautioned that incidents like the fatal shooting could happen in any city, “and do not reflect the ideals or nature of our city’s Police Department.”

“Austin is thankful to have one of the best police forces in the country,” he said in a statement. “One that tirelessly works to ensure that our community and city remain safe.”

But just in case, The People’s Task Force Tx is on the case; their Facebook page is here.

Meanwhile, in Albuquerque, citizens involved in holding police, the Mayor, and City Council accountable for the 26 murders by police since 2012 are figuratively up in arms over the City holding the NRA’s shooting competitions there. Competing for APD is a cop who killed unarmed people. Events in ABQ really deserve their own post, but you can watch yesterday’s press conference by citizens (including FDL’s Barbara Grothus, goddess love her) protesting the September even here on youtube. David Correia pointed out that the Killer Cop competition will be held on the anniversary of mentally ill James’ Boyd’s execution last year. Correia also retweeted this new ‘national anthem’:

(cross-posted at

55 responses to “Killer Kop Kleinert Pre-Trial Hearing Started this Week in Austin

  1. wow. American police are like backwater in Iraq.

    this is frightening.

    thanks a lot.

  2. welcome, markf. i’d grabbed links to organizations trying to create data bases on kop killings (i’ll try to post some of that soon), but i ran into this case. it does turn out that according to the people’s task force on facebook, that kleinert’s trial has been postponed for the third time now. i’ll add the facebook page up yonder.

    i also left you some comments that jack balkwill who edits liberty underground news made about paul craig roberts somewhere in the midst of all that dreck that fredd the commie posted.

  3. interesting thanks. I agree with that writer. There’s a lot of the thinking style that he refers to. I mentioned it before on your blog.

  4. yes, and given that, i figured you might appreciate Jack’s take as well. and his link. ‘born in red diapers’ cracked me up.

  5. Wendye Dear.

    St Paul Minnesota, a young man was shot dead by police today. His crime was throwing rocks at the police. There was a rally organized for Mike Brown and the people of Ferguson the same day. Over 1,000 people showed up. More on this and more being planned.

    Heads up

  6. oh, michael cavlan. not another killing! link? i can’t find any new about it, not even on the usual twitter feeds. (#ferguson, fatal encounters, etc.) oh, my stars; i’ll keep hunting for news, and may he rest in peace.

  7. i did find this, but the man wasn’t killed at a protest. maybe it’s a second killing?

    Police in St. Paul shoot man throwing rocks

    ST. PAUL, Minn. – Police in St. Paul say one man is dead after an officer-involved shooting Thursday morning.

    Spokesman Sergeant Paul Paulos says it happened around 7 a.m. near the
    intersection of Plato and Wabasha. He says the officer who fired his
    weapon is uninjured, but the suspect was fatally wounded.A
    witness tells news sources that the man who was killed was
    throwing objects at cars, likely rocks, when police were called. When
    an officer approached him the witness says the suspect punched the
    officer. The witness, who identified himself simply as Toby, says that
    officer’s partner drew his gun and told the man to step back. He
    allegedly refused, advancing in a threatening way until the officer
    fired three or four times.The man who was killed is described as a Hispanic male in his mid-twenties.

    oy, i read wrong. you’d meant that it was ironic that a thousand protested in solidarity w/ ferguson. my mistake; it’s early.

  8. MEANwhile the Barackraven Bush Bully Puppet hides in his sock (It To US) drawer.

  9. and here i was just castigating fred the commie for not wanting to engage in conversation, lol.

  10. Well. I too wanted to remind comrade Fred of the Animal Farm admonition that some animals are LESS equal than others; particularly,

    But I figgered it’d only encourage him (and sooner or later he’ll run afoul of Jane and the Spamster Youth, over there!).

  11. Fred the Commie

    “The notion behind the word [castigate] is ‘make someone pure by correcting or reproving him.'”

    Ha ha ha ha. Imitation the sincerest form of flattery, eh, comrade?

  12. Wendye

    You have attracted your very own troll. You should be complimented on this. It is a sign of growth.

    Yes you were correct. Young man killed in St paul on the same day that there was a protest in Minneapolis on the issue of police brutality, killings and Ferguson.

    The protest in Minneapolis (which I got to) had about a thousand people attending. there was no corporate media coverage. Are we surprised?


  13. Fred the Commie

    Orwell, a democratic socialist,[2] was a critic of Joseph Stalin and hostile to Moscow-directed Stalinism, an attitude that was critically shaped by his experiences during the Spanish Civil War.[3] The Soviet Union, he believed, had become a brutal dictatorship, built upon a cult of personality and enforced by a reign of terror.

    In that war, he fought with the Marxist POUM. Since he’d incarnated in a society convinced that it’s animals were more than others (at least that was their ruling fraud), it wasn’t equality he was satirizing.

    But we already knew that, didn’t we, comrade Bruce?

  14. oh, bruce! poor li’l spammie whose made of pig snouts n bungholes! and a MDR of rodent hairs and feces! yah, freddie/olga’s been banned from fdl dozens of times already. can’t change his invective for love ner money, and it gives him away every time. by the by, wayoutwest got banned, too, for saying something that a mod called ‘islamophobic nd racist’. can’t imagine that, myself.

    hope he comes here. much more pithy than comrade commie.

  15. it took me time, but i finally zeroed in on it, lol. chePasa brought this version, and the scanner stuff linked on the right sidebar.
    and said:

    “From the Minneapolis Star-Tribune and police scanner, he was apparently hit or run over by a motorist and was said to be bloody when he was confronted by police. From the scanner — assuming it wasn’t edited — it sounds like the guy was shot within seconds of police arriving. Yet another summary execution.

    Many people apparently called 911 because the guy was breaking windows and making a fuss.

    In my day, that was called vandalism or maybe malicious mischief. I don’t recall it being an automatic death sentence.”

    nice capsule. well, we’ll call this visitor jejune, eh? stay well. and no media coverage: did someone not request media?

  16. Fred the Commie

    And Orwell died getting out his vision of the police state at the end of “Enlightenment”. Do you suppose he thought it was the pursuit of equality which would get us there?

  17. Fred the Commie

    I believe I set a record, dear comrade. I still get the itch for Mustacchio …

  18. Fred the Commie

    Damn. 700K Ukies in Russia. Those butt-headed Palestinians should take clue!

    Hell, maybe we should too!

    Ha ha ha ha ha.

  19. Left you a link to police shooting contest protests from Albuquerque at the other site too. Not too hard to understand why bgrothus was not saying very much about what she has been up to.

  20. i just saw it, nonquixote. and told you that i had indeed mentioned it just above the last tweet by david correia introducing the New National Anthem, and provided a link to this video. Bless their hearts, they are awesome. can they stop the competition? once again, it may be the process that matters, not the short-term outcome, eh?

  21. Keynes is Dead; Long Live Marx!

    the Keynesian reliance on the ability of the government to re-regulate and revive the economy through policies of demand management rests on a hopeful perception that the state can control capitalism; […] contrary to such wishful perceptions, public policies are […] class policies.

    And here you thought privatized Keynesianism was gonna save you!

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

  22. Fred, the Commie

    PCR: “President Reagan had two main goals: to end stagflation and to end the Cold War”. “As for financial deregulation, it began two presidents after Reagan with the Clinton administration’s repeal of Glass-Steagall.”

    Hossein-Zadeh: “Reagan picked up the Democrat’s copy of gradual agenda of neoliberalism and ran with it, replacing the rhetoric of capitalism-with-a-human-face with the imperious, self-righteous rhetoric of rugged individualism that greed and self-interest are virtues to be nurtured.”

    In Marx’s Theory of Exchange (1973), Roberts argued that Marx was an organizational theorist whose materialist conception of history ruled out good will as an effective force for change.

    In their hatred of ‘the rich,’ the left-wing overlooks that in the 20th century the rich were the class most persecuted by government. The class genocide of the 20th century is the greatest genocide in history.

    Fucking doofus.

    O my goodness. And PCR calls himself an economist.

  23. Wendye Davis Dear.

    the local not credible (establishment) on line newspaper the daily planet covered this. The local “credible” Minneapolis Star Tribune did not. Need we say more?

    Here is the Daily Planet article- I was there of course. Enjoy

  24. Wendye

    Sorry to hear, but not terribly surprised to hear about more bannings at FDL.

    I hope the “errant one” does show up here. We could commiserate. LOL we could rename this Wendye’s Home of Wayward Proggies LOL

  25. abq police brutality protestors say that lapel and helmet cams are a distraction, given that so many of the murderers there either had the cams switched off, or the tapes disappeared. x-files, you see.

    yeah, wayoutwest isn’t likely to come here, but i can’t imagine he said anything purposely islamophobic, although he does believe that isis/is is the most serious threat the west faces. i suppose that he means (meant) to this nation’s people, as well, but i don’t quite recall.

    good on all of you thousand. very cool. somehow we need to widen the discussion and include hispanics and first americans, as well: they suffer much of the same stuff, esp. the latter. maybe that will become more clear as the police state ramps up even further.

  26. Wendye

    In Minnesota Latino’s and Native Americans are a central part of the conversation. As is “pooh white trash” like myself. The only color we see on this issue is BLUE


  27. Hi Wendy, you have a great little site here and I stopped by to say hello. I’m glad you noticed I was banned from the dog puddle and they had to create a lie to fit their agenda. They have been trying to find a real reason for the ban for years, which I cleverly never offered them, so they reverted to their usual dishonesty.

    My evil comment was about the Islamic State recruiting in Ferguson, offering equal protection and equal rights, regardless of race, under Sharia Law something not offered under democracy, a fact, and a hypothetical comment about converted citizens marching there calling for Jihad to get some real attention. What really got Jane POed was my questioning why we should support John Kiriakou an admitted CIA rendition thug and con man.

    FDL had potential at one time but when the only Muslim voice there left in disgust because of real racism and crude Islamophobia, offered up by still respected diarists, I knew then it was time for me to leave. Except for you and a few other great diarists there FDL is known as a gatekeeper site and strange attractor of creepy Boston Bombing theorists and other fringe diversions.

    Thanks for the invitation to make trouble here and I may try to control my misanthropic tendencies and join you occasionally.

    Peter, AKA Wayoutwest

  28. good, then, michael cavlan. there is a protest going on in ferguson right now. some different livestreams are up (will they be jammed? will cells quit working?)

  29. wot, ho? speak of the devil! my stars, what strange alchemy brought you here? good on you, peter. i’m not understanding your comment, i guess, but that’s okay. sure, it’s known as a gatekeeper site, especially, imo, big greens like the capitalist didn’t know that about kiriakou, but i do remember writing what a sham it was that he’d been prosecuted and found guilty, sent to jail. no, i haven’t given money for his rent, kids to go to camp, yada, yada… :) it’s not as quite dem-centric as it used to be, i am glad of that.

    yes, come any time, glad to have you. if you’re inclined, there are instructions about registering at the top of the categories list on the right sidebar (only advantage may be if one wants an avatar, or to become an author).

    shoot, i am srsly not getting my chores done, and need to scoot for now.

  30. I remember one “creepy Boston Bombing theorist” who was a strange repeller as well.

    What really got Jane POed was my questioning why we should support John Kiriakou an admitted CIA rendition thug and con man.

    O. U must have mercy on con men, in the American jungle.

    Ho ho.

  31. wayoutwest: just got ‘dog puddle’, lol. i’d forgotten to say that i was not a fan of mfi. i was bullied by him too many times, and read there that he was not moderated for his shit because he was ‘a special guest’. Pffffft. but you can often find him at if you’d like.

    michael cavlan: the protesters in the twin cities might be interested in this website:

  32. i respect what the boston bomber questioners are doing. how many times has the fbi railroaded someone who was not guilty as charged? and how often does the pressitute media follow along with the ‘evildoer’ narrative without questioning it? cripes, look at coverage of evil putin and ukraine. faux reporting from and about r2p libya, now iraq, afghanistan, and tra la la.

  33. Wayoutwest

    Welcome to the world of the banned and damned at FDL

    We could rename Wendyes site as the Home For Wayward Lefties Banned By FDL. LOL

    Wendye you are absolutely on point when it comes to and other sin the foundation grant funded 501 c3 Industrial Comlex. I just seen a stellar article on this. I will shoot it your way son. Gotta go now though.

    Busy day ahead with organizing


  34. I’m not asking anyone to trust the FBI or DOJ in the BB case, we already have evidence of DT’s guilt from public and private sources and a couple of confessions that are hard to ignore no matter the source. Conspiracy theories based on confusion, unsubstantiated claims and rumors makes for interesting if hypothetical discussions but lead nowhere because there is no facts to support them. I would welcome any real proof of any of the various claims that have been made about this case, more than a year in there have been none.

    I had many unanswered questions and was skeptical of the claim of their guilt because of the initial confusion and contradictions seen in the early days of this case but all the glairing counter-evidence of the brothers T involvement was quickly and easily debunked as BS or confusion. All that is left is baseless theories and distortion of events and simplistic reasoning such as, fireworks are not explosives.

    I have no quarrel with discussions of the justice system, government wrongdoing or opposition to the death penalty related to this case but the BB News diarys are more about a creepy personal connection with DT or desire for that personal connection shown by many of the commentere there, thus he is called Jarhar as if they really know this child killer. Even more chilling than that, they desire to free an admitted mass murderer to win some strange contest with our corrupt government.

    Even if the nonsense about these brothers being CIA/FBI/WKW dupes or collaborators were true they are still cold-blooded, callous murderers as the trial will show, hopefully this fall.

  35. cory morningstar has written extensively about their funding and gatekeeping at counterpunch. hoo-ee! did i take some flak for my ‘tweeting while the world burns’ about mckibben’s ‘protest’ (read faux-begging) at the white house some time ago. ;)

  36. i haven’t kept up, but the first posts i’d read questioning the ‘facts’ were by investigative journalist russ baker and friends at the comments i’d read a bit more carefully on their threads were largely by margo schulter, a serious student of death penalty cases.

    beyond that, i can only say that confessions can be coerced, and there was plenty of fishy business going on with a fibbie killing one of his friends in a hotel room. that was just made for teevee. but i thank you for explaining more fully why you believe they are whacked. ef beall wrote a lot about it, come to think of it, and put his scientific scrutiny to bear on the evidence, or lack thereof. he would not have qualified as a fan-boy, i’m pretty certain. ;)

  37. Michael, thanks for the wecome and it’s good to see you’re still
    active even though we have been relegated to the lower levels of Dante’s Inferno.

    Wendy. I know you had issues with MFI and Mohamed but you never lowered yourself to racist and Islamophobic responses to their unfair criticism. Those who did respond that way, to what I think was a fair criticisn, have never apologised and discussions on the incident were silenced. Even with their flaws they did provide a needed non-Western viewpoint that is absent from most discussions especially now that we are back to Iraq. I have been conversing with another Shia Muhamed who is in the fever stage of Baghdadi Denial Syndrome and the halucinations and delusions about the situation in the ME are quite spectacular.

  38. hey, wait a minute! this is a lower level of dante’s inferno? oh. okay; maybe we do resemble that remark…. ;)

    i never had any exchanges with mohammed ibn feith (sp?). but i’m not sure that mfi is muslim, although he does speak and write arabic quite well. at least, iirc, he was in the military in ireland, says the bomb disposal unit. but he does seem to have adopted iraq as a second home, and i could easily be wrong about any of that. heh, i do remember kelly c tag-teaming with mfi on me once, and kelly saying how he knew what a bigot i would be about him being friend with a man (mohammed) who was studying to be an ayatollah, as though one were supposed to be reflexively thinking of one of the ‘bad guy ayatollahs in the axis of evil’ or somesuch.

    now i’m as cautious about clergy of any stripe as the next non-believer is, but goodness…what a silly assumption, maybe even worse than silly. i’d never seen anyone mock either of them by way of islamophobic slurs, and had remembered that mfi said it was some comment on an over easy thread about dog water bowls or something… i will say i was amused that it took him three days to leave after his announcement, though. was miz hamsher not around at the time? she was awol for long stretches of time, i remember.

    meanwhile, the tweeties say that thousands marched in ferguson today. good. the window has been closing fast on pushing back on the totally out-of-control police state.

  39. Wendye Davis’s Home For Wayward Proggies.

    Has a nice ring to it. A place where the conversation about the Veal Pen of politics is more than just rhetoric? As Wendye is wont to say- nest paux?

    Good to see you WayOutWest.

    Another member of the legion of the banned and damned. LOL

  40. It’s good to hear people in Ferguson are still demonstrating even if it only helps with their grieving and community identity. The PTB are not affected by demonstrations and seem to view them as training
    exercises for the coming civil collapse and revolts.

  41. yes, michael cavlan, and more of the banned and frustrated used to be part of this juke-joint, but for various reasons, personal and political…are absent.

  42. while i might agree that ferguson is a bit of a test-case, as was ‘shelter in place boston’, i see a modicum of hope that it won’t end there. different folks are organizing/crowd-sourcing data bases for killer cop deaths over the past X years to refute the fibbies’ ‘400 in 2012’ figure. what analysis will be brought to bear, as in the ghetto storm report by the malcolm x project is yet to be known. many peeps are trying to form permanent standing organizations that are issuing foia requests (fusion center collaboration?, etc.), and testing constitutional rights . the constitutional free zones are a whole ‘nother problem, esp on the mexican border. tht issue, by the by, has gone begging, since first americans and brownfolks from the south aren’t receiving much ink),

    but: a couple other things that i thought i’d mention since stuff percolates thru my brain more slowly every day now…

    you’d mentioned re: the bostom bomber trial something like ‘the truth will come out’. i need to say that court and the judicial branch, be it state or federal, where The Truth is most likely to stay at the bottom of the well. think of attorneys, and compare defense and prosecution, deep pockets, insider fixes, political judges who often disallow certain evidence to even be heard. (not just claims of ‘national security’, but similarly). think: on what grounds defense attorneys defend their clients or prosecute cases, as with george zimmerman’s trial. from where i sat, what witnesses actually said, and the fact that stand your ground wasn’t even part of the trial, the jury may have had no choice but to acquit. (even though witnesses tried to recant testimony afterward, egad.)

    think how many killer cops have not been found guilty, even if by some miracle they were indicted and their cases were heard. *testilying* rules. well, you get my drift, i’m sure.

    i’d like to hear more about this: ‘I have been conversing with another Shia Muhamed who is in the fever stage of Baghdadi Denial Syndrome and the halucinations and delusions about the situation in the ME are quite spectacular’. i’ve rather reluctantly been at least skimming some pieces that say that isis, is, isil, are organizations largely created by US/western foreign policy and misadventures, and some essays trace the modern history to ballast those claims. (much as al qaeda was a product of the usa’s funding and support when russia was the enemy to beat in afghanistan.)

    there may hve been a third thing, but the afternoon/evening here got quite hectic and i’ve forgotten it…

    but re: ferguson, abq, east LA: may folks stay pissed, *not heal* until they receive justice. may the radicals influence this generation to rebel.

  43. I wish I could be as optimistic as you about what will actually happen because of Ferguson. If past experience is a guide nothing substantive will change because not enough people giva a damn about their neighbors especially if they are not White and it may already too late for any citizen led activist movement to confront the neo-Fascist order we now live under.

    Evidence is what will be presented at the BB trial, truth is another idea best left to philosophers and poets. The defense team has stated clearly, in court documents, that there will be no real defence in the BB case only an attempt at mitigation in the Death Penalty phase. Old Gold, a lawyer, has pointed this out repetatedly at the BB News although most of the others there are waiting for a miracle or some fantisy to be fufilled during the trial.

    You have to be careful about using words like “created” when refering to the US and its involvement in the ME. It almost pictures us as exceptionally God like and denies the locals of any agency in their destiny. It does simplify things for Westerners who have trouble finding the ME no less understanding it. It also creates some feeling of false security by thinking that we are really still in control when we are not.

    Al Qaeda was already present in Afghanistan when the CIA started supporting the local Afghan Mujahideen throught the Pakistani ISI who controlled all arms and funds movements to the insrgents. Al Quaeda played a very small role in that war and there is no evidence that they had any contact with the CIA, none. Pakistan controlled all access to Afghanistan and only allowed two US agents to ever enter the country. I know people have trouble seperating the two thousand or so Al Qaeda from the two hundred thousand local Mujahideen who speak a different language and have different customs and apparently didn’t think much of the AQ foreign Arabs who they shot regularly.for being too arrogant.

    I guess this is another myth or folk tale that has taken root since 9/11 based on confusion and ignorance or willful misdirection, I believed it until a little wiki told me it ain’t so.

    On a lighter note I just listened to Wooden Ships!

  44. funny; i was remembering ‘wooden ships’ just yesterday, and wondering if when we performed it, listeners had a clue what the lyrics even meant. prolly not. but i did do a li’l bit of homework this mornin’.

    okay, i read the current bb thread, and yes, the argument seems to be between defense strategy being about ‘only mitigation’, or ‘mitigation and more’. i guess the death penalty mitigation would likely have been why margo chulter was on their threads so often.

    i’d misread your comment a bit, but who knows who posted or amended the wiki? plenty of evidence around that ‘interested parties’ have been discovered changing entries. ;)

    so…thinking incorrectly about what you’d written, i went to the cia’s website and found this:

    “CIA & Afghanistan
    After the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in December 1979, President Carter directed CIA to assist the Afghan mujahidin. CIA came to see that the indigenous Afghan opposition to the Soviets was less an organized movement than widespread opposition by villages and tribes.
    Through Pakistan, CIA provided the mujahidin with money, weapons, medical supplies, and communications equipment. Initially the goal was to drain Soviet resources by keeping their forces bogged down. In 1985, CIA shifted from a plan of attrition to one that would help the rebels win. One of the pivotal moments came in September 1986, when the mujahidin used CIA-provided Stinger missiles to shoot down three Soviet Mi-24D helicopter gunships. As part of this escalation of financial and materiel support, President Reagan issued new guidance that put CIA into more direct contact with rebel commanders, beginning an era of CIA interaction with tribal and local leaders that continues through the post-9/11 era.
    The Soviet withdrawal in 1989 eliminated the key interest that the United States had shared with the mujahidin. The foreign fighters who had joined the Afghan resistance dispersed to other parts of the world, and the local commanders undertook a violent and difficult struggle for control of the country’s resources and government, which culminated in Taliban rule.”

    now i don’t subscribe to their take on the taliban, but that’s a whole ‘nother subject. but when i realized my error, i let my fingers do the Giggling, found a couple more articles.

    i’d been trying to remember the various former cia operatives who’ve written about that, isis, etc., but there are too many holes in my brain now, and my memory depletes more every day.

    gotta head to the chores now…

  45. Wooden Ships is just as poignant now as it was 40 plus years ago, “they don’t need us” but its naively optomistic outlook on surviving the apocolypse, on purple berries, reflects a very different era.

    I thought Creation Myths were ancient history to be studied by anthropologists but it seems some people have rediscovered their power to shape public opinion or deflect it away from an uncomfortable reality that many people are unable to face. If we created the Islamic State then somehow we can turn it off, if we didn’t create it and don’t actually control it all bets are off and panic is near.

    It’s a beautiful day here and I’m going to run some errands and visit a friend.

  46. Freed Green Commie

    Go take your sister then by the hand
    Lead her away from this foreign land
    Far away where we might laugh again
    We are leaving, you don’t need us

    Where did the “New Left” take us? “All this progressive practice, or agenda, is actually a form of controlled opposition.” “Right-wing people, libertarians, have this unique tendency to tell the truth while the progressive or the left would agree to lie in the name of the cause.”

    “We created the Islamic State” is hardly a soothing creation myth, comrade. Instead, it implies murderers plot amongst us and the “we” who would “turn it off” does not include them.

    Besides, we don’t believe in creation myths; only the idiots do. Right, comrade?

  47. Freed Green Commie

    What are NGO’s and Civil Societies? They are actually a system that are there – all over the world, not just in Palestine – […] to neutralize young dissent.

  48. as an aside, what anthropoloigists call ‘creation myths’ are what many indigenous believe, and shape their lives around, from the diné to the puebloan culture, likely eastern tribes as well. but i expect that you didn’t quite mean that literally.

    there may be some intersectionality with belief, knowledge, and historically based intuition at play here, and i only know what i’ve read and/or knew later when more information came to light. but as far as stopping what the empire had a hand in creating, that is known as blowback, isn’t it? creating more and more enemies through foreign policy, military misadventures, hegemonic impulses in aid of capitalistic multinationals, and tra la la?

    ‘occupying the muslim holy lands’ for instance, assassinating brown people by drone and bombs, overthrowing leaders and aiding coups governments allied with violent AQ regimes, etc., as in libya? i dunno, gray dog has a piece up about it, but i opted out of watching the video for lack of time, and may not have been any the wiser afterward.

    and as the empire begins to fail, it’s flailing around to exert more control again, and is increasingly dangerous.

    meaning: i don’t know. but yes, surviving nuclear was was naive, bu as markf says, there still are many among the ptb who still believe it, more’s the tragedy.

  49. Wayoutwest and Wendye

    I always took the Wooden Ships to mean that those of us who believe in decency and humanity are in fact aliens in this land. that someday we will be taken away as our message of love was rejected by the humanoids of this planet.

    I have often wondered if that is what the whole hippy thing was all about. Aliens trying to teach the backwards humanoids a better way. Or as the joke goes. A human was contacted by an alien. The human asks “Why have you not sent an emissary to help guide us?” To which the alien replies “We did. You folks crucified him.”

    We are aliens in this foreign land. Wooden ships are our transport outta this mad land. Aliens have us quarantined. Earth is the looney bin of the Universe.

  50. well, i like that interpretation this morning. argh, i had hideous dreams last night, and felt almost ready to take the blue pill. funny crucifixtion jest, though. mr. wd often quips about those waiting for the Second Coming that they’d crucify him or her, too.

    a good labor day to us all; hope we’re all toiling away as expected… mr. wd’s at work, it’s bread day for me, with various and sundry other chores ahead, including writing a new post on ukraine. :)

  51. looking forward to it wen dye davis dear. Good day to you and Mr Wendye Davis. Mrs Michael Cavlan is out of state. She went to stay with her parents on “The Rez” as her Mother is not doing so well. She will be there for a month. i am so proud of her family. The kids are taking turns to stay there and watch for and take care of their Mother. the idea of =sending her to a Nursing home was not even considered. Man I got lucky and got hooked up with ab good family go Ndn’s as they like to say. My wife often uses the racist term “skins” when she talks of her fellow natives. LOL Incorrigable is all I can say.

  52. Dave Lindorf:

    … in Finland, I made a road trip from the southern city of Kuopio to northern Lapland above the Arctic Circle, to report on arctic climate change. Just before reaching the Arctic Circle on my first evening on the road, I came on two young people, a man and a woman, who were hitchhiking. Being a long-time hitchhiker myself, and deeply in karmic debt as a driver, I immediately pulled over and invited them to hop in.

    They turned out to be two Ukrainians from Kiev, both just out of college. The young man, Vladimir, was trained as an engineer. The young woman, Svetlana, was a communications grad. She spoke better English than Vlad. They explained that they had left Ukraine a month earlier in a group of some 100 young people, “to find work, and to get away from the war.” [These two “took temporary summer work visas to pick berries in Finland”]

    Alien production is improving!

  53. michael cavlan: sooo many indigenous cultures actually value their elders. good onher, and good on you for appreciating miz cavlan and her family so highly. most of amurrika is simply youth-oriented, especially as *consumers*. meh.

    fried green tomatoes: here’s the link; i haven’t read past the first page, but i srsly like dave’s site. and dave.

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